That's just it Ernie. We don't have to prove anything. We know our cars run better and we don't have to prove it to anyone. Its the stooges that started telling us that gold on tin is bad......so what. Our cars run better. We don't really care what the science says because we feel it. Are we all dreamers? BTW I don't have access to a dyno and frankly, I don't care what you think. Ive seen dozens of Ferraris get worked on and all sorts of changes done to their cars at the shop I go to and Ive yet to see anyone do a dyno test before and after anything and some of them are on the track all the time. If gold on tin is so bad then laugh at us and be done with it and we will continue to drive our cars trouble free. Whats it to you? Or is there an agenda?
Oh yes you do. When I had my throttle bodies ported I had people doubting it would do anything. I had to prove that the cfm increased. The tb's where put on a flow bench and tested. The before and after results were posted right here on fchat. But was that enough for some? Nope, and not even enough for ME. So we did a before and after dyno. Did some pulls with stock tbs, then some pulls with my ported tbs. The result +4hp to the hubs = proof the ported tbs increased power as claimed. Then I had custom headers, high flow cats, and a high flow muffler made. I didn't just go around telling people "I don't have to prove anything to you". No, I put my balls on the chopping block and had a dyno test done. Which again was posted right here on fchat, complete with dyno sheets proving my modifications made more power. No "because I say so", but big boy put your money where your mouth is PROOF that the stuff I was doing worked. Then there was my emissions test problem, again posted right here on fchat. I posted all the failed emissions data from the first day. Then I posted what I concluded the problem was ( the t-stat) then after test data from the very next day, PROVING what "I said" was indeed true. Then I said I needed new cats to further rectify the emissions problem, and provided the data yet again what I said was true backed up by emission testing data. ALL posted right here on fchat for the world to see. If you just tell people it works but have no proof why should we believe you? You were on the championship winning F1 team, no? If you told Jean Todt that this would work "because you said so, and you didn't have to prove anything to him" what do you think he would have told you? Probably to go pound sand and work for another team. No I bet if you claimed something was to work you had better damn well PROVE it worked, not only in testing, but on the track where it mattered. None of this "because I say so, and have to prove nothing to anyone" crap. Especially when you are spending big bucks on the "improvement". So lets get real here. Unless we start seeing some before and after dyno, and emissions testing, proving the gck works as claimed, I think it's totally fair to claim BS. You wanna shut up the nay sayers, including the test data from the manufactures, then you sure do have to prove it. Provide before and after data of TIN pin junior power timer wiring looms vs the GCK. Lets just see once and for all what is and isn't better. Prove it.
As an independant observer of the debate going on here, I'd like to make a few comments. I'd really like to believe that the GCk is magic and can transform my 355 one day into a car as reliable as a honda. Makes me sleep better to know that if I start seeing problems, there is a solution. I've also read the abundant documentation of the downside of dissimilar metals at the connectors. Makes me pause before buying the GCK. Data on cars before and after the GCk WOULD be very convincing to someone like me who really wants to believe in the GCK as an answer to the gremlins that plague these cars. Those of you who have the kit installed can feel a difference. That's great. But for those of us who have not taken the plunge, before and after data would be better marketing than any testimonials from the current GCK users. I hope Dave H. will one day produce before/ after data and silence the doubters. I really do want to believe.....
You had better go back and re-read the whole thread again. You are misquoting a lot. By the way while your at it take another pill. I don't have to prove diddly squat to you. You and your stooges don't think our cars run better. ......Sorry I had to laugh a bit. I really don't care. Maybe you have a dyno in your basement...good for you....I have no room for one...I have too many pinball machines there. All the owners that installed the kit seem to be happy and you stooges are telling us that we should not be happy....again laughable. Ill bet my car is still running great 10 years from now and frankly that's all that matters. Get it? If you don't, I don't give a rats arse.
Actually, testimonials are usually a good thing to have but I can see why you are doubtful....that's the job of these stooges. Like I said, there is an agenda here.
I've always appreciated the contributions of the pros, the stooges and everyone else on this forum. I've learned so much from everyone. What is this "agenda" you keep speaking of? Maybe I am having trouble reading between the lines. What exactly do you mean?
The proof! Let's see some before and after data. Don't take it personal, just provided the proof to verify the claims. No name calling, no feelings getting hurt, no one mad at anyone, just some before and after test data.
Here you go. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q/326310-stooge-tin-pin-connector-kit.html But you knew that already, so don't be coy. All you are trying to do is some character assassination. Let's stop the personal attacks and stick to data, as I have and some of the others. If this issues is ever to be resolved the only way that will happen will be with before and after test data, comparing junior power timer pins, tin vs gold. It can be kept very simple. Resistance on both ends of wire, one with Tin JPT pins, and another with the GCK pins. Before and after dyno pulls for power, and before and after emissions test result. That seems reasonable. I have seen videos of after market Ferrari mufflers, using a decibel meter, to see what exhaust is louder. The proof as to which muffler is louder is the reading on the db meter. Then I have seen videos of stock Ferrari headers vs aftermarket headers. The proof that the aftermarket headers make more power is the dyno graphs. So why is it unreasonable to ask the same of a kit that people claim makes their cars run better? If the cars are more efficient with this kit then lets see the proof. We have seen the verifiable proof from other upgrades, so why not with this? If the test data from the manufacture is wrong then prove it. Things don't always work as the test data says it should. You can have improvements calculated via complicated math, physics, fluid dynamics, thermal efficiency, Reynolds number, helmholts resonance, aerodynamics, etcetera, etcetera, all test virtually and seem to work. Then it all gets tested in the real world, with verifiable data, and it doesn't work as expected. So, maybe it's the same with the GCK? Maybe all the real world test data by the manufactures is wrong? It could happen. But how is anyone to know unless there is verifiable test data as proof? So, Let's see some before and after test data. That's all. No reason to get all huffy about it. If it works as claimed let the data prove the claims.
Just in case some of you are wondering what I talking about as far as "Stooge" goes you can read about it in this thread. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/348-355/212266-whos-stooge.html
I read all of the previous threads before I asked the question about the Tin vs Gold. It was as opinionated then as it is now. let me repeat.....opinionated. That is why I asked if anyone had FACTs about Gold/Tin. Low and behold.....individuals posted facts this time. Studies from industry and the likes saying this is a very bad idea. Specifically, that it will ruin your ECU contacts. Now for the people have already done the GCK, I am glad your car is running fine. I will chalk that up as a data point. However, I now have to wonder about those that may have issues in the future with their ECU. Will it be in 5 years, 10 years, who knows...we will have to wait on the failures. (Kinda like valve guides) And as much as I do not like to read the fluff from GerryD.....I have to think his car is better off because he has not put the Gold on his ECU. And, suppossedly, his is the best running 355 money can buy (according to GErryD) So GerryD, I am not sure why you continue to fight this "agenda" because your car is the poster child for where to use Gold connections. Im just not sure why you did not buy them for 28 cents.
I think Dave Helms is a much better innovator/mechanic than a businessman. I think his work is motivated by passion instead of financial gain so he's put his products out on the market to finance his research but has not felt the need to prove anything or perform specific tests of any kind to push his product. I still believe in the Gold kit and want one...If anyone wants to perform all before/after tests and install a GCK in my car, I'll definetly volunteer and document everything on photo-video and post the results here.
The only agenda of the stooges, which apparently includes me, is technical accuracy and since GerryD can't provide a single piece of supporting data, he feels we have some reason to bring this GCK down. Totally false! I'd love to see someone with electrical issues in their car replace all the connectors with tin instead of gold and I'd bet the improvement comes from that - fresh connections. That would be a wonderful data point. If I ever have issues with my car, I'll do that but right now it runs like a champ.
In high end audio there is a product that is suppose to make your system sound better. It can be placed in power supplies, in speaker cables, in crossover networks, etc. But the claim is the same. Some highly respected component designers and lots of audiophiles swear it works. One adventuresome critic of the device went to the extreme of dissecting one of these devices. What was found was a 0.01 ohm power resistor embedded is a ceramic case. Yep, that was it, a 0.01 ohm resistor. Biggest scam on the planet. Yet even with this reveal there remain individuals who claim there must be more to it because they still swear they can hear an improvement in their system when the device is installed. Now, I would not call the GCK a scam. New connections replacing bad one should improve things. But if the connections are good to start with it is unlikely that much will change with new connectors, gold, tin or otherwise. And like I posted a few pages ago, there is supposed to be a new 308QV kit coming out to improve the reliability of the 308QV, which is probable the most reliable car ever built by Ferrari and really doesn't need any help.
Not to go off tangent, but when I bought my home theater system (Rotel), I was talked into bi-wire speaker wire. "Talked into" being the key. If anyone knows about this stuff ,it's a joke. Maybe it has some merit (my electrical engineer buddy could find none) and to hear the difference would require ears a human does not have.
Actually Dave, bi-wiring does have an advantage but this is not the place to get into that. PM me if you would like to discuss it.
I believe it from a technical stand point, I just don't believe anyone could ever hear the difference. I'll PM you John.
to all those who think this thread is crap......seriously? i have learnt so much on this thread alone on stuff i had no clue about previously..... and seriously, where is the data/proof required if one is to get the golden connector kit? i also learnt about corrosion and types of metals when i was in school......i became a lawyer down the road, not a chemical/electrical engineer but i think i can read and make up some sort of analysis and conclusion based on data....so where is the data....not mere testimony....data please?....... my knowledge on a lot of things could be said to be nil and thanks to forums like this i'v learnt heck of a lot and know a thing or two....i now know when a mechanic or a car dealer is trying to BS me on some **** thinking i know jack ****....thanks to the stuff i read, mostly here, i now know what is true and what isn't....so you guys who are blindly just saying this and that with no proof..(just give it a thought)... funny ain't it? and to those of you making personal attacks on others......seriously? does it make you guys feel superior by doing so? i love this forum....but people like you who offer nothing but mere useless lip service should refrain from commenting on anything if it's not useful.... ps: i have absolutely no "agenda" in this.....from a far faraway land!!! and if I do get data and stuff, who knows, i could even try to market the kit here.....now that's an agenda coming to think of it ;-)
This is the part of this thread that is most disturbing. Pro-GCK or Anti-GCK, the personal attacks are childish, if not repulsive, and have no place anywhere on FChat.
Dave, I've been following this thread and am getting disgusted at how some of the posters here are losing their composure, become hostile, and resort to attacks. Check your PM, by the way, on a totally different topic
Mike, I just tried to reply to your PM and you are full. PS, email would be much easier - shoot me email. Dave
Sorry Dave, I just saw that. I emptied some mail so I should have room now. I will send you an email.
Ernie- You missed the point completely. The point was: after all the abuse you absorbed after the first foray into GCK, why would you stick your nose into it a second time?
