Installing SRI Gold kit today - little help?

PS....so your answer is "no?" Because you forgot to answer again.

 

No credibility, none at all.

 

Hey Ketel!

Not trying to be pushy, but could you please hurry up and finish installing the GCK and let us know what the outcome is. I'm fascinated by the kit, but am really tired of digging through the insults (selfish me ))).

 

I hate to breakup this love fest but as I indicated several pages ago I purchased some tin and gold connectors and decided to run some tests. These tests are different from anything we have read about. First I want to quickly revisit the know facts. The issues are 1) clamping force, 2) fretting corrosion and 3) electrochemical/environmental corrosion. Clamping force is easy. More is better but since gold is softer than tin, there is a limit to how high it can be with gold. I don't think this limitation on gold is an issue. So I'll leave it as more is better. Fretting corrosion is also easy. Don't get you panties up in a bunch, but it has been well documented that tin on tin is better than gold on tin. Gold on Gold is the best. Ok, that leave electrochemical and environmental corrosion. This is where I was interested in testing gold on tin vs. tin on tin. There are several cases to consider. First is dry contacts. If the contacts are dry then there doesn't appear to be any advantage to either G on T or T on T. Next is what I will call wet. In this case there is sufficient moisture present to act as a weak electrolyte. In such cases we can expect T on T to behave better than G on T because of the electrochemical potential difference between G and T. Again, well documented and I did not investigate.

Now to what I did investigate. What I did was to model a CTS with tin pins connected using tin or gold connectors. A CTS has a resistance that decrease as the temperature goes up. Nominal resistance is about 1k Ohm when cold. So I soldered a 1k resistor between two tin pins. This was then connected to a voltage source as it would be in a car. The connection to the source was made with either gold or tin connectors. I then introduced a mild electrolyte into the connector to mimic the case where the connector got wet. At first the result surprised me but then I realized what was happening. Regardless of whether the connectors were tin or gold one pin corroded very rapidly. In fact, the corrosion was so bad that all the tin plating on one pin was "dissolved" exposing bare copper once the corrosion was cleaned off. The connector to that pin was also damaged regardless of it being tin or gold. There was no indication that T on T was better or worse than G on T. the reason is because the pins are biased. That is, there is a significant voltage difference between the two pin. In you car this difference is about 5 volts. What this does is similar to the difference in electrochemical potential between different metals, but it is significantly greater. This means the regardless of the metals involved one pin will act as an anode and the other as a cathode and the result is deterioration of one on the contacts/pins.

What this leads me to conclude is that gold makes no difference. It doesn't help, but it probably doesn't hurt, unless fretting is an issue. And the best way to assure good connections would appear to be using the proper clamping force and keeping the connectors clean and dry.

Given the tone that this thread has taken on I don't think I want to comment any more.

 

Thank you for posting this. This is great testing data and info.

Some may think this has no bearing with their cars, but it does. If you live in an area that gets high humidity you will have issues with moisture being introduced to your connectors.

 

Yes but you have to get savior right; afterall he did raise my car from the dead.

 

John...are you saying that no matter what the metal, the voltage applied will cause corrosion of the connector? The key factor being humidity to accelerate? (Just trying to make sure I'm following)

Fretting only occurs in a dry environment, due to dissimilar metals,correct? (Not a humidity function)

 

I believe I mentioned this at least twice but let's try again; we did replace many tin pins with new tin pins that were directly related to my problems, cleaned all pins, deox'd the pins, tried to tighten the pins, but the problems always returned...UNTIL THE GOLD KIT!!!!!!!

I'm very happy you have a "reliable" (exactly how would you define that) Ferrari without the GCK and I hope it continues to run great for a long time. And I mean that.

But as GerryD said you don't know either, 'cause you've never driven a similar car with the kit. I do know that Dave H did all the heavy lifting on this kit with a multitude of different wires, connectors, tin (with and without different alloys, gold, (solid gold, mil spec, gold plating, etc.) and on and on. AGAIN, he used gold for a reason, not just because it's gold. So without a timeline on the total disintegration of gold on tin then I'll stick with someone who honestly has forgotten more about Ferrari engineering and repair than anyone on this blog knows.

 

The key word ...MANY. MANY. MANY.

But....unfortunately....not the ONE that was causing your problem.

Therefore, ALL your connections were then replaced. Correct? Yes or no would be a sufficient analytical response.

 

Oh, my...

 

Moisture alone would probably result in the simple electrochemical reaction between gold and tin at one pin. While this is a potential problem I don't think it is as serious as I initially did, but it is still a source for concern and I see no reason to introduce G on T over T on T as the mixed metals can only be a negative. The test I did was to examine what would happen if there is enough moisture to provide an interaction between different, closely spaced pins at different potentials (volts). This is a situation which could occur in any number of sensors or at the ECU. This could occur with the accumulation of moisture over time, or getting water in a connector due to rain or washing. If my thinking is correct, it looks like there is electrolysis of the water and the oxygen released is causing the oxidation of the tin pin and degradation of the contact, gold or tin. And this happens pretty quickly. I used a mild electrolyte in my tests and the degradation occurred in MINUTES. I went back and repeated the test with tap water and while slower, the same process occurred.

Fretting is a dry issue and will occur with tin on tin or gold on tin. The metals don't have to be dissimilar.

Below are a couple of picture of the contacts after the test. On the left is T on T. Note the discoloration of the pin and contact on the circled. On the right is the G on T result. Again, note the discoloration of the pin and contact circled. The gold on the circled contact isn't even visible. Also not clear in either picture is that the remainder of the connector is very pitted in both cases.
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I have been reading this thread as I am sure many others have and have watched as this has degenerated into a xxxxing match that is beneath common social courtesies that I am sure you were all brought up with.

When I was looking for my car and doing my DD I read a voluminous amount of threads on this site and as a result became educated and informed on topics that I was completely ignorant of. As a result I walked from a car that had potential valve guide issues (thread in my post history) and had the very good fortune to reach out to Dave Helms pre purchase.

Dave willingly gave me more than four hours if his time over multiple phone calls answering questions, educating me on topics and helping me make an informed decision pre purchase.

Since then I have called him three times on issues I have had. Again read my history. First being an OBD issue , secondly header replacement decision and airbag lights followed by CEL lights post header replacement.

On every occasion Dave took my call, responded to my email and offered for free, experienced, informed advice that so far has served me well

FYI Dave advised me to buy OEM new Ferrari headers which I did on his recomendation last month. There are many on here rolling there eyes and ready to tell me what a fool I am for doing that including some of Dave's biggest supporters on this thread.

I am a dentist. A handy one at that and I grew up in the car business as that is how my Dad made a living. I have been chastised on this forum for deferring to those who "do this for a living" but I learned very long in my very technically oriented dental career that you can never be an expert in all matters and at some point it is in your best interest and in the patients interest to default to those that know more than you.

I don't know if Dave's advice on my headers was the best but I trust him implicitly because he demonstrated to me with no profit motive a level of competence and integrity that I am willing to hang my hat on. He may be right on the GCK and wrong on the headers or visa versa but having someone who "does this for a living" on my side and a phone call away with no hope my car from NJ will end up in CO is comforting.

The technical discussions on this thread are educational and informative. I have sat through countless hours of lectures on the relative bond strengths of various dental bonding agents and have been using the same product now for ten years with superior clinical results with no issues and until someone proves something works better I will trudge on with success

Clinical and technical results must be proven in the field ultimately. If you aren't "doing this for a living" your sample pool is statistically non existent (as in one) so you might at least consider what those who are doing this for a living have to say

And Ferrari NA did tell me directly that the new OEM headers have been changed and improved and warranteed as well. I am sure most here will say how can you trust them? Well the last time I looked I own a Ferrari not a XXXspeed or a XXbi or whatever. Make your own decisions. Mr. Helms told me that at this point they are the BEST out there. Good enough for me.

You have to at some point believe that there are others who know more than you. I learned that long ago

Please excuse the typos. The phone is tricky.
Peace.

 

Amen doctor, amen!

 

Good post Bob. Listen, Ive got these two gold crowns.......ah forget about it.

 

Yes Tim they were all replaced after the many, many, many were found to be the culprits that were traced by the tradional method that you are talking about. THE MANY, MANY, MANY "WERE" THE CONNECTORS THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO REPAIR MY CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE. After this wonderful method of finding this problem part that went to crap in a very short time, Dave decided that there must be a better way of doing this and actually "fixing" many of these pain in the ass electrical problems, which lead him to the ECU's wiring, clamping, and connectors; sooooooooooo after years of testing various combinations of the aforementioned parts we now have the gold kit. Thank God...and Dave.

With great concentration please read all of drbob's post, you just maybe, maybe, might learn something.

 

Bob, we've discussed this......what have you decided?, are you doing the GCK?

 

Steve, now I get why you did that. It wasn't a spelling lesson, you were merely emphasizing that David Helms was a saviour to your car, reviving it, using the word "saviour" that another poster used in his response.

In that context, it was wrong of me to post what I posted, and I sincerely apologize for that.

 

Rob....this was a really nice post from you. I believe that you may not feel confident in doing the work yourself, and I think it may be worth it for you to have DH available to help you if you should tackle this project. They say peace of mind is a good investment.

I really hate to type the following, but there may be another set of us here that are looking to trouble shoot our cars by ourselves and are simply trying to debate the proper connectors we may wish to choose. I do not see ourselves calling DH and asking for help. Nor do I believe that gold/tin is an option for me.

I really wish this debate did not come off as a personal attack on DH or the owners where it has fixed their issues. What we are looking for is "how " it fixed the issue and is it really related to Gold given the evidence that members can provide. (Because the data flies in the face of the positive experiences some have posted) So if the data and experience are so contradictory, then wouldn't you want to discuss it?

Unfortunately....I feel as if those "debating" this issue have been attacked. Called "hatchets....stooges...etc" I never read that anyone of us against gold started any attacks, but have been attacked. We have been asked for our names, credentials, and how far do we drive our personal cars. Really?!

After reading your post it almost seems like you are comparing ....DH (and his nice demeanor) vs Scientific evidence.....and since one of them is a phone call away, you choose the one that will speak to you. And, I completely support your right to do so.

 

Why couldn't you just be more accurate in the first place? You could have said, we replaced all of the connectors in my car with Tin.....result was CEL still existed. Next we changed them all to GOLD....result was CEL went away. IF this really did occur, then why didn't you simply state this before.

But, that is not what you said, is it? Stop blaming me for being accurate.

 

Great Post Bob and Tim.

Tim, Bob is very comfortable doing the work himself, he's done quite a bit.

Tim, I think your summary is spot on.....this is NOT an attack on DH in any way.

 

When you read all of the scientific data on the connectors, do you not think that Dave did this many moons ago? When you hear what steve says happened to his car, do you not think back to your readings and maybe just maybe the tin on tin is no good in a Ferrari especially a 355 that runs super hot. Tin on tin is not recommended in very hot conditions and believe me its hot under the hood of a 355. Not only that but the number of times tin on tin can be pulled apart and reconnected is no more than 10 times and in many cases less. The gold connectors in the GCK (and I talked to Dave about this years ago) can be connected and disconnected well over 100 times without any signs of clamping force being lost. Fretting happens more in connectors that have little clamping force ie the oem ones and Dave had a lot of trouble finding anything good and had to look all over the world to find the ones he uses. Now gold on tin is not good in certain conditions ie wet and worst of all salt and water. This is also the reason his kit contains new boots...have you seen how bad the oem ones are? When you take all this into account the kit will keep your car running a lot longer than tin on tin as the tin on tin will have to be replaced at least 3 times in the life of a Ferrari and as many have said before....the harness will not be long enough.
As I said before, Dave is no dummy in fact far from it and he built this kit over many years of research, trial and error. If tin on tin (under these conditions) was best, then im sure he would have used it.
Your last line to Drbob is a bit of a slam but that's the way you operate.
For those who are considering the kit....Do it, you wont regret it. In fact you will feel a big difference in your car and it wont be in your mind. That line was an assault on the mind of anyone with an IQ over 90. As for Ernie...do you have no shame?
To Dave Helms....I know your probably reading this thread when you get the chance. Don't worry be happy as the detractors are outnumbered 1000 times by the believers. Keep up the good work bud.

 

Ugh. I hate to even post in this thread.

I removed the GC from the F1 system in my car. They were installed prior to my ownership by a former respected shop on this forum.

The connections were the cause of numerous issues. Bad crimps? Bad connectors? Who knows? But I pulled the connectors and replaced with updated AMP connectors last July and everything settled out.

I refuse to fall into the name calling and insults on this thread, but I do think my experience needs to be known.

 

Exactly.

Hey it only takes one bad connection to screw up quite a few things.

 

Exactly...Standard tin connectors made life much better.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience, much appreciated.