Buy

Interim Berlinetta # 1377GT

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by boothguy, Aug 13, 2007.

  1. boothguy

    boothguy Karting

    Mar 28, 2006
    94
    Vista, CA
    Full Name:
    David Booth
    #1 boothguy, Aug 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Since lots of the posters here have a wealth of the most amazingly detailed historical details, I thought I'd ask for some help.

    I'm seeking information on 250 Interim Berlinetta # 1377GT.

    I know the basic information from Barchetta and similar sites. , but am looking to fill in a few of the gaps. For example:

    Any pictures of the car on Ferrari's stand at the 1959 Paris show?

    Carlos Kaufman appears to have been the Ferrari importer for Venezuela at the time, but the original consignee seems to have been a Max Meyer. Any connection to the paint that was put on Ferraris at about this same time?

    Any pictures from Le Mans 1959, Buenos Aires 1000km 1960 or Cuban GP 1960?

    Any pictures from later (unknown) races?

    Any competition records of the car in the hands of Chinetti back George Arents?

    Car was reportedly crashed by either Arents or by Nicola Cherubini, who I thought only drove in Europe. Was the car raced in Europe, crashed, and then the wreck somehow returned to Chinetti?

    Was the car restored by Wayne Sparling?

    Where is the car today?

    Attached images are of sister car 1509GT (white in race trim) and 1521GT (silver in road trim at Retromobile '05).

    All information appreciated.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Dec 30, 2006
    3,049
    FRANCE
    250GT#1377GT was white with registration plates EE 8065. Raced at Le Mans 1959 with number 20.
     
  4. pgrootswagers

    pgrootswagers Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
    534
    Waalwijk (NL)
    Full Name:
    Peter Grootswagers
    Only have built sheet information:
    Telaio tipo: 508D matricola: 1377 GT
    Motor tipo: 128F matricola: 1377 GT numero interno 0430F
    Cambio tipo: 508D matricola: 196 D
    Ponte tipo: 508D matricola: 417 D

    Peter Grootswagers
     
  5. boothguy

    boothguy Karting

    Mar 28, 2006
    94
    Vista, CA
    Full Name:
    David Booth
    Sorry for my lumpy sentence structure in the original post. I was trying to do two things at once and apparently didn't do either one very well.

    I've read that most of the Interim Berlinettas including 1377GT, received a Tipo 128DF engine - apparently the forerunner of the Tipo 168. Peter: if you have the build sheet information for the subsequent six Interim Berlinettas, I'm wondering if they also list the engine type as 128F, and if the numbers run upward from 0430; or if that number might appear to be out of sequence.
     
  6. Arvin Grajau

    Arvin Grajau Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 7, 2006
    64,045
    Full Name:
    Arvin Grajau
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. pgrootswagers

    pgrootswagers Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
    534
    Waalwijk (NL)
    Full Name:
    Peter Grootswagers
    #1461 GT, motore tipo 128 F, matricolo 1461 GT, numero interno 0396 F (original built sheet)
    #1465 GT, no info, type 128 D engine (according to Raab)
    #1509 GT, motore tipo 128 DF, numero interno 0398 DF (according to Barchetta and Raab)
    #1519 GT, no info, inside plug engine 128 D (according to Barchetta) - 128 DF numero interno 0478 DF (according to Raab)
    #1521 GT, no info, inside plug engine 128 D (according to Barchetta) - 128 DF numero interno 0480 DF (according to Raab)
    #1523 GT, no info, type 128 DF engine (according to Barchetta) - numero interno 0476 DF (according to Raab)

    Best wishes,

    Peter Grootswagers
     
  9. baraka

    baraka Karting

    Oct 2, 2005
    210
    Aix-les-Bains,France
    Full Name:
    François Roux
    #7 baraka, Aug 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    If you don't have it, here's a pic from Jes Pourret's book. According to him it was wrecked by Cherubini in the 60s then sold to Chinetti.
    The engine has later been installed in another car.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. boothguy

    boothguy Karting

    Mar 28, 2006
    94
    Vista, CA
    Full Name:
    David Booth
    Thanks for the information, Peter. It appears then, as though a numero interno for 1377GT of 0430 is out of order considering the rest of the cars. A number beginning in "03" would seem to be more correct or at least logical. I'm wondering if what was recorded as "0430" on the build sheet was a typographical error when "0340" might have been the actual number.

    So where are all the other historians on this topic? No other history or photos for ths car? Current whereabouts unknown?
     
  11. boothguy

    boothguy Karting

    Mar 28, 2006
    94
    Vista, CA
    Full Name:
    David Booth
    #9 boothguy, Aug 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As luck would have it, Interim Berllinetta # 1465GT was at the Monterey Historics this past weekend and I had an opportunity to speak with owners Tony and Lulu Wang about the car following the race warmup on Sunday.

    This is the car that had the sketchiest build details of the seven as seen in Peter's post above. As you can see from the pictures below, it is indeed a 128D-type motor (inside plug), and carries numero interno 0474D. In a conversation with Alan Boe on Saturday, he let me know that it was not at all uncommon for the numero interno on a particular engine in a series of cars to be out of order. And 1465/ 0474D would seem to bear that out.

    The car is in wonderful "driver" condition, which IMHO, is exactly the way all cars of this vintage ought to be kept - racers or not. No garage/trailer queens.

    And since Lulu Wang is a really tiny person, the original seat in the car was padded out so that she was literally sitting on a phone book-sized additional cushion to get a decent position in the car. She was gridded last for the start of race 4B Sunday, but gained several positions once the flag dropped, without really flogging the car.

    Someone said that yet another of the seven 250 Interims was shown at Pebble Beach on Sunday. Did anyone see it and get any information?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,362
    Pretty interesting. So when Tom Walgamuth's PF Coupé engine (#0472) had been picked out of line, the four next blocks were picked out for the remaining four Interim Berlinettas...
     
  14. amadei

    amadei Rookie

    Aug 2, 2007
    41
    Modena Italy
    Full Name:
    Luca Amadei
    someone know were is the original #1377 engine
     
  15. boothguy

    boothguy Karting

    Mar 28, 2006
    94
    Vista, CA
    Full Name:
    David Booth
    As a matter of fact, I do.
     
  16. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2004
    1,801
    Wolfeboro NH
    Full Name:
    Thomas E Shaughnessy
    #13 shaughnessy, Nov 10, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2008
    I do too !! Well just the block, I discovered this several years back

    Problem is both internal number and number pad have both been modified. Numero internal undetectable

    Front of the block had also been modified (crudely) to accomodate a different timing chest, for a 128E/F configuration

    Engine builder decided not to have his name on a hodge podge (BITSA) motor, knew it would come back to bite him,
    recommended the proper block be used with the rest of his components (not 128D/F), and returned it to the customer.
     
  17. lesliewales

    lesliewales Karting

    Jan 8, 2006
    98
  18. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,211
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
  19. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,362
    Two sides to every story I guess. As I have understood it, the engine builder kept the block back for about eight months without doing anything else than pulling the liners out (Ouch!) also trying to convince the owner that it is nothing more than a tired PF Coupe block that can't be rebuilt (I wonder why...). I have also understood that the engine builder would have substituted the block with a proper street engine at no extra cost. How generous of him! Still I never thought that somebody would come out and admit all this going on in the open. Best wishes, Kare
     
  20. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2009
    505
    valencia, venezuela
    Full Name:
    branko
    #17 elmotorizado, Feb 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  21. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2009
    505
    valencia, venezuela
    Full Name:
    branko
    #18 elmotorizado, Feb 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    After Le Mans 59 this car was taken to la Lotteria di Monza by Fayen (not shown on any records so far) and according to Fayen's papers he was disqualified ( I assume it was not accepted as a GT, even if the week before it ran in GT class), another interesting fact was that the car remained in France in the hands of Jean Behra to have it ready for the Tour De France in which he was going to race with Fayen.
    Article in venezuelan newspaper.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    At Monza Fayen and his wife, at the door of 0969 Willy Mairesse.
    branko
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. Sempre_gilles

    Sempre_gilles Formula Junior

    Jul 11, 2003
    924
    Full Name:
    AdK
    Branko,

    of course Jean Berhra died in a sports car race at the Avus on the first of August 1959, which left Fayen without co-driver for the Tour de France Automobile 1959.

    Do you know Fayen did try to find another co-driver or returned to Venezuela straight away for the Gran Premio de la Ciudad de Ojeda (which was held simultaneously in September 1959)?
     
  23. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2009
    505
    valencia, venezuela
    Full Name:
    branko
    #20 elmotorizado, Feb 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Wish I could answer your question, I can only assume that after Behra's death, Fayen brought his car to Venezuela and raced it in Septemeber 20th at Ciudad Ojeda, where he won and was disqualified after the race, the authorities considered that the car was not an homologated GT.
    branko
    Picture at Ciudad Ojeda 1959
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  24. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    869
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    ex-works, at LM in 1959...
    Purported to be faster in a straight line than the TRs(had a late TR after all!), but it "handled like a truck" and it was easily passed in the corners-the drivers were also "substandard for such a car"-(so says a witness from a concessionaires team/pits)..

    History claims it was wrecked at B'hampton in '66-'69(?), body mashed, frame damaged(I have pics post stripping...in the snow, outside LCM...)
    It has been re-bodied(where-in "quality is ALWAYS A subjective evaluation), there are 3(THREE!) blocks with buggered numbers as TS has described-I've seen 1 of them and passed-the owner claims 3!!! are making similar assertions), a non-original transmission, non=original diff, guages, etc...the car's being resurrected with period applicable components

    This WAS an IMPORTANT CAR...then,
    NOW, merely an interesting...."resurrection" ...
    a repaired frame is all that survives LeMans from 1959...in my OPINJION...
    having EXAMINED IT IN THE FLESH....on more than 1 occassion

    It will make a GREAT vintage racer(our interests), but, forget the "Lawn" at Pebble...those guys way too pershickety(prewar mentality) for a car with drama like this....BESIDES, ALL THESE CARS WERE RACING CARS TO BEGIN WITH, SO BIG DEAL....
    If not for the third prototype car, we probably take a pass at it...
    ALL in IMHO....
    re Racing, ex-works cars, NOT for the faint of heart or wallet, caveat emptor....
     
  25. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Interesting.

    This is what happens to race cars. As long as everything is fully disclosed all is good.
     
  26. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2009
    505
    valencia, venezuela
    Full Name:
    branko
    #23 elmotorizado, Feb 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2011
    Hi 335, I have a different story, someone sent me this article and I believe it is in Cavallino #95, besides I spoke 2 weeks ago with Fayens widow.

    A visit with Carlos Kauffmann to talk about Ferrari is a truly unique experience. His stories, his memories, and his tales about the people he met and knew make for fascinating listening. For example, Carlos sold a white long wheelbase berlinetta (s/n 1377 GT, the first of seven “Interim” LWB berlinettas) to Lino Fayen of Venezuela to be driven by Fayen and Gino Munaron at the 24 hours of Le Mans; they finished sixth overall and fourth in the GT class. Carlos accompanied the team to France and was able to secure Factory mechanical assistance from Ferrari for the car at Le Mans, but this meant that the team had to obey Factory orders. With one hour left and good Finishing positions guaranteed, Ferrari´s team manager, Romolo Tavoni, ordered their drivers to maintain their positions and not race each other. Fayen who was in the berlinetta at the time who had aspirations of becoming a Factory team driver, continued to hammer around the Sarthe circuit disobeying Tavoni´s orders. Factory support was withdrawn before the race was concluded and, after the race, when Carlos accompanied Fayen back to Maranello, Il Commendatore refused to even receive Fayen! Needless to say, Fayen never became a Factory team driver
    branko
    More will follow about the story of this car and 0726.
     
  27. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    May 15, 2003
    4,133
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Boudewijn Berkhoff
    #24 Boudewijn, Feb 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Cavallino 174 of last year had this story on the Interims showing 1521GT.
    The frame of 1377GT entered the PF plant on March 31 1959 and the car was finished on June 10. Delivery to Fayen through Kauffmann took place in France one week before the start of the Le Mans 24 hrs race!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  28. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,362
    Two engines can be quite easily explained in a case of a Le Mans prepared car as driving the first 4'000 kms with full throttle isn't exactly the best way to break in a new engine. I personally believe this car was delivered with two engines and the fact that factory archives seem only to recognize one engine per car (the last one installed) is a problem not fully recognized in the field. I have no idea what the 3rd engine is. This really is a can of worms just like factory renumbering so such things occuring are usually strictly denied. Then it is really up to whether you are willing to cut corners to get a car "fully documented" or if you want to know what really happaned.

    In this case it is quite interesting that the engine that came out of 2105GT seems to belong to a batch of four 128/DF-engines. Two of them (plus this one?) was prepared for Le Mans entries and the fourth one was later installed into yet another Interim Berlinetta. "0430F" as described by existing build sheets seems to be a "motore regolaro" and I think it could very well be a factory replacement. If this turned out to be true, which one should be regarded as the original matching numbers engine?

    Best wishes, Kare
     

Share This Page