Intermittent Brake failure on 458 | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Intermittent Brake failure on 458

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by eberro, Jul 16, 2015.

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  1. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    4,870
    France
    It definitely helps to pump on a soft pedal (typically when the brakes are too hot, the real issue coming more from the fluid than from the discs and pads), but it does not restore normal stopping power - there is no miracle, it gives back some braking power but not all of it.
    In crap cars from the '80s with small brakes very prone to fading this trick had to be used often; CCM brakes react the same except the limit is far higher.

    The more concerning issue described in this thread is however to have a hard pedal and no braking power, which is more difficult to understand (and to mitigate).
     
    of2worlds likes this.
  2. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,112
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    Yes, I tried that, ... did not work. Was on the Hockehein Track. After 10 laps it started at the same spot again and again.

    The next 8 rounds, at the same spot (doing 240 km/h hairpin right to 10 km/h)

    Had to drive out straight 50 mtrs, turn on the tarmac and accellerated full again: barkes fully operational again.

    After looooong discussions with the master engineers they foud out I drove in Sports Mode; that was my "mistake"...

    Should have been on ESC ...
     
  3. SmokinV10

    SmokinV10 Karting

    Oct 19, 2017
    50
    This appears to be a disaster waiting to happen. The consequences of even one occurrence could be nothing short of catastrophic. Imagine having his happen in a school zone while children are crossing. The Ferrari driver would be stereotyped into the "hot rodder" who negligently killed innocent children. Lives could be lost and a lifetime of achievement could be lost or tied up in years of litigation. Am I wrong to assume that Ferrari has not stepped up?
     
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  4. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Jul 25, 2008
    14,112
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
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    Mel
    No bloody noses imo :)
     
  5. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
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    Nuno
    Thanks for your input, Mel.

    So the apparent intermittent and momentaneous 458 brake failure can have a direct link to manettino position?

    Owners who reported/experienced the issue: do you remember your manettino switch position?

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  6. cityvibe

    cityvibe Rookie

    Aug 26, 2004
    40
    I had the same problem on my 2012 458. Sometimes, albeit rarely, after driving the car normally I would come to apply the brakes and the pedal was hard, as if the brake booster was not functioning properly. It's scary as hell if you're coming off a freeway off ramp fast and the pedal is hard and the car doesn't slow down like it's supposed to. I took it to the dealer and they replaced the brake booster, actuator, and master cylinder. This is a problem Ferrari is very well aware of and it affects a lot of 458's out there. Be very careful.
     
    of2worlds likes this.
  7. lee2468

    lee2468 Rookie

    Jun 5, 2005
    6
    I'm sure I was in 'Sport' mode when I encountered the problem! Most worrying is that Ferrari diagnostics failed to detect any fault!
     
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  8. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Jul 25, 2008
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    I agree on that ! Ferrari diagnostics should report it !

    The Ecu's seem to be the problem. Not booster or brakes ...
     
    AlfistaPortoghese likes this.
  9. cityvibe

    cityvibe Rookie

    Aug 26, 2004
    40
    Sorry but I don't think the ECU controls brake boost. I may be wrong but that seems dangerous to allow an electronics based system control the most important safety system (brakes) of the car. Even in formula 1 the brake by wire only controls the rear wheels, the front is still 100% mechanical.

    Assuming that 80% of the stopping power of the car is the front brakes, even total rear brake failure wouldn't be as bad as the loss of stopping power that happens in this instance of booster failure.

    I have the service receipts from Ferrari FYI detailing the parts replaced, again purely a booster issue and I there is also a Ferrari service bulletin regarding this.
     
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  10. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
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    Nuno
    If booster replaced, problem goes away for good? One time fix or will it come back eventually, given some time and similar circumstances?

    Sensors are sensitive electronics. Exposed to time, heat, moist and other elements of mother nature, they'll fail and need replacement. Why a sensor failure in such electronically advanced cars such as ours that monitor everything to the moon and back won't trigger nor memorize a simple fault code on the master ECU of our cars is beyond me.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  11. Afonsolaw

    Afonsolaw Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2011
    1,908
    New jersey
    How would you get the brakes to work? Did you pump the brakes?
     
  12. Afonsolaw

    Afonsolaw Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2011
    1,908
    New jersey
    My first instinct would be to pump the brakes.

    How rare is this occurrence?

    Does this happen on 458 in all year models?

    Is it possible to pull on the E brake lever if traveling at speed ? Will it engage and possibly prevent a accident ?

    I'm surprised Ferrari had not made a recal/campaign to resolve this issue.
     
  13. FFFES15

    FFFES15 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2017
    8
    For those who posted that they experienced intermittent brake failure on their 458,what model years are your F.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. lsmith

    lsmith Rookie

    Feb 25, 2014
    14
    Going to watch this thread closely. It has happen to me several times. Hard pedal little braking power. Hot or cold brakes. Have taken to two different dealerships that tested for many miles, heated up brakes. Both say nothing wrong. FY13. No problems experienced with my other CCM based F-cars.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. lee2468

    lee2468 Rookie

    Jun 5, 2005
    6
     
  16. Baitschev

    Baitschev Formula Junior

    Jan 8, 2017
    262
    Vienna
    2010 458 Italia in sportmode cold outside temperature hard brake
    After 3 Times braking hard at 280 km/h normal ops.and i changed my underwear
     
  17. Afonsolaw

    Afonsolaw Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2011
    1,908
    New jersey
    How did you get the car to slow down?
     
  18. cityvibe

    cityvibe Rookie

    Aug 26, 2004
    40
    It's not a matter of pumping the brakes, as if there was air in the system or something.

    The brake pedal is nice and hard when the failure occurs. However there is no brake boost and stopping performance is severely hampered.

    It's basically the difference between "power brakes" when they first introduced cars with brake boosters vs. cars with no brake boosters. Think 1940's master cylinder only cars vs cars in the 60's that had power brakes via the addition of the brake booster which provided boost via engine vacuum.

    The best way to replicate the problem is drive down a hill with the engine off and hit the brakes and see how your 458 slows down with the engine off. That is the experience exactly, verbatim, to a tee. The brakes still work, the pedal is hard, but there is no power assist via the brake booster. So stopping performance is 30% of what it could be, a very dangerous predicament when you're not expecting it.

    I never usually post ih this forum but I will actively educate people on this known 458 issue as it scared me enough times to dump the car. Even after they replaced $12K worth of parts I still got rid of it.
     
    eberro likes this.
  19. NbyNW

    NbyNW F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    I'm in the market for something and was leaning heavy to the 458, but no more. Plus in a California from post 11, and a report in an FF resulting in an accident.
    This phantom event could be devastating. People running through roundabouts dodging cars, guy in the UK in jail for hitting a carpark guard. ABS ice mode, manettino switch position, brake booster? A TSB on the booster - seems inadequate, this isn't a squeaky suspension part. Should be a recall and an update to capture the fault code and event.
    What other models are impacted? Other brands?
     
    lee2468 likes this.
  20. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Jul 25, 2008
    14,112
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
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    It happened with me in "sportsmode" ... mecanics told me to drive in "race" and it would not happen ... is that electrical or not ?
     
  21. cityvibe

    cityvibe Rookie

    Aug 26, 2004
    40
    #71 cityvibe, Nov 12, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
    That's the silliest thing I ever heard, change the setting from sport to race and your brakes will work. Come on now.............

    I have had the brake system parts replaced by the Ferrari dealer and the paperwork to prove it, seems like your dealer is not as willing to help rectify this problem, I'd go to another dealer. This is no joke.
     
  22. Kaivball

    Kaivball Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2007
    35,997
    Kalifornia
    If it’s ABS related then Race mode possibly has a different ABS profile setting.

    What were the road conditions when these occurrences happened?

    Wet? Cold and cold tires? Cobblestone? Dirty road?

    Kai
     
  23. zakeen

    zakeen Formula Junior

    Aug 29, 2004
    989
    Czech Republic
    2015 Speciale
     
  24. nmcclure

    nmcclure Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 13, 2014
    437
    TX
    are you all running stock wheel/tire aspect ratios? I was at COTA when a 458 driver went directly into the wall at T1, and he too had the same issue...no brakes at all.
     
  25. lee2468

    lee2468 Rookie

    Jun 5, 2005
    6
    When it happened to me I was coming off a motorway junction up to a roundabout - the road had a smooth tarmac surface and the brakes were up to normal operating temperature and it was a warm dry day. I had been accelerating hard followed by me immediately applying the brakes very hard only to discover I had a rock hard brake pedal and what felt like no stopping power - very scary! As seems to be the common theme with owners who have encountered this problem Ferrari main agent found absolutely nothing wrong!
     

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