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Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by ART360, Nov 12, 2003.
Jeez, that's weird. Here I thought all along that war was a picnic.
and your suprized by this?
Interesting hypothesis on why the Iraqi resistance is gaining support:
I think this article reflects the British mood quite well. We don't dislike Americans, just your president. It must be even worse for you, knowing that he didn't even win the election.
He won the election.
"They" have to tell "us" we are "losing" because the left wing media bias does not allow them to report it ? Please !!!
Looks like it is exactly as I thought it would be all along....the Democrats "want" US failure at home and abroad.......it makes those books I read much more succinct in their descriptions of what treason and slander are really all about and who practices them the most.
Read up on what the US is doing now and how they are getting ot these guys doing the hit and run attacks. They were pretty succesfull last night it seems. Expect to see more of "Spectre" and ground based counter battery radar in the near future..............
from the article
How is this "we're losing and trying to cover it up".
You sound like a typical left wing IDIOT when you say stuff like that. Is the situation pretty. NO, but I don't see any inference in that article that the US is trying to cover it up.
Pull you're head out Art. I understand you're perspective of war is a lot different than most of us b/c of you're experiences in Vietnam, but you're smarter than this.
Art, I see you have'nt changed. Still a passivist and a liberal. Why is it so difficult to see the need for a democracy in the middle of such an oppressed region? Anyway, how have you been? I hope all is well!
kds, et al:
I'm seeing history being replayed. Same story, different actors, slightly different script, but same story, and from what I'm seeing, the same result. The unfortunately part of this is that young kids are being fed into this and their being killed, mained, etc. because of stupidity and ego.
The recent poll in Baghdad shows that 1% of the Iraqis believe that the US came to help them. Less than 10% want us there. Take a look at those polls. Bush is now going to effect change in the appointed government. Anybody remember a guy by the name of Diem? Same story, different script, different actors, same result: "You can't liberate a country, where the people don't want you there" Robert McNamara. He was an idiot, but he finally came clean. We're doing it again, and most of us can't seem to realize it.
The rest of the world gets it. The conservatives will have to be shown. Remeber, they've been wrong from the jump: No weapons of mass destruction, no flowers in the street, no easy occupation, no oil exports to pay for this, and the list goes on, and on.
Call me what you will, but there is no reason for these young people to die, none.
IMHO the only mistake we have made is not finishing the job by going after all the other regimes in the area that refuse to become free and democratic! The world should no longer tolerate governments that do not allow self determination. I don't agree the rest of the world sees it differently. I think they just don't understand how average Americans really think. I also think they are just not willing to commit the resources it will take to eradicate these regimes. They have always depended on us to solve thier problems while at the same time bad mouthing us, that is nothing new. Our way is right and they know it! When I say that I mean Democracy and freedom. I don't mean to make this to long but I would like to put in something my daughter wrote to me in an email recently. She is an exchange student at Leeds Uni right now. For those who don't know about Leeds, it is in England. She wrote "On the social side of things, I'm doing well. I've made a solid group of friends by now, and I'm finally getting to know them. At first, most of the people in Bodington were just people that I felt like night clubbing with. I spent most of my time with my American friends, who I felt were the only ones that understood me. However, be it fate or just plain luck, I have come to realize that no matter where you're from or who you were or are, good friends can be found anywhere in the most unlikely places. My American friends aren't any better than my English friends, there is just a different set of friendships for each. So my advice to those of you who are afraid to leave "home": Don't be afraid of what and who you don't know, for it is exactly in the unknown that you might often find what you need- appreciation of culture, tolerance of diversity, and value for humanity. However, I have encountered, just about every day, some new person who tells me how they don't like Americans. Of all the things I was told about England before I came, the facts about anti-American sentiment are, indeed, as true as the sun is bright! I just sit back and listen to what they have to say, and try to be the best representative that I can for my country! I have surprised a few people though. I've actually been told by a few friends: "I didn't want to make the effort to be your friend at first, because you're an American, but now that I know you, I really like you!" I suppose I should take comments like that as compliments, but I can't help but feel sorry for America, as it has some pretty crappy representatives. I'm not talking about average citizens, who I feel are great people, instead I'm talking about the people who end up on TV that make the rest of us look bad. The English only know about America through what they see on TV, and I do have to admit, from this side of the world, Bush looks pretty darn bad! Most of the English think that all Americans are just like Bush, that we all want to blow up the rest of the world, we all want the world to do things like we do, we all want to dominate, and that we are all egocentrical, ignorant of the world outside of the US, and obnoxious. Although, I feel I have done my part to show these young University students that most of the Americans I know are kind, caring, and open-minded people, all of who are patriotic (which, as we all know, is different from egocentricity.) I hope I have represented America for what it is, for I can only guess that the English like me, and will therefore be open-hearted to the Americans they come across in the future."
I think, if the people out there that do not understand what we are trying to do would come here and see how we really are, they would see that we just want the rest of the world to enjoy what we have!
This is what the rest of the world is thinking:
Charles from her comments about Bush, it looks like you raised her well.
Thank you ART. We have tried to do our best to make her a free thinker. You noticed that her views don't completely agree with ours. I think what I was trying to say though was that the rest of the worlds view of us is quite narrow. They only know what they see on TV so thier opinion about what we are doing cannot be truely objective.
You want to walk in and destroy regimes everywhere w/o cause? Try on your own daughter's statements for size: "Don't be afraid of what and who you don't know, for it is exactly in the unknown that you might often find what you need- appreciation of culture, tolerance of diversity, and value for humanity."
Rather hypocritical of you, no? I'm not saying that those regimes are necessarily right or wrong, simply pointing out that both sides have their problems and by forcing something upon one, you don't employ the virtues you claim to.
I should also add: I do agree that people in a lot of cultures / societies miss out on what they can possibly have by not seeing things... but the task of trying to show them things objectively is a MUCH larger thing than just blowing up their current governments and trying to install new ones.
BTW Art the article you just posted only supports what I said. It does not say they have changed thier mind about this effort being right. It says they are affriad of thier forces security. It also shows that what I said about them not wanting to commit the resouces is also correct.
If someone came into your country, started blowing things up, killing people, etc. in an effort to change the very way you and your ancestors have lived life ... and then told you that you need to help commit resources ... call me crazy, but I can't exactly see you welcoming them with open arms.
Bobafett, I think you misunderstand me. I am all for the things my daughter said. That is were she got those beliefs. I think you miss the fact that many of these counties populations are under duress. They do not have the ability to free themselves and as such need our help. Lets face it, we are not out there attacking other Democracies and free nations. We are only trying to rid the world of dictatorships and oppressive regimes. This is commpletely different than the way you would choose to see it. You see it as us just trying to impose our will but in reality we are only trying to share the blessings of freedom with those that cannot get it on their own.
BTW change is inevitable. Reguardless of how these people have lived in the past it is time for them to get into the modern world like the rest of us. I suppose you think it is ok for them to continue to live in the dark ages just because it is thier way. If thats the case then maybe we should also stop trying to help poor underdeveloped countries develope modern technology so they can feed thier people since it will destroy thier ancient way of life.
I'm simply taking things as I see it. I try to understand as much of both sides of any discussion as I may, and then make my own decision. I *wish* our interests abroad were so noble. Honestly, however, I am far from convinced of it. And while I mean nothing towards you, I feel that people who do see our actions abroad as nothing more than altruistic really do have the blinders on.
I can not think of one, not ONE attack or political interest the US has made in the past 50 years that is not motivated by some undercurrent of greed, dominance or self-interest. And while I wish it weren't true, I fear it is.
You say "it is time for them to get into the modern world like the rest of us" - and which modern world is that? What values are we trying to instill? Let's take a long hard look at what is wrong here at home before we try to go forcing the very same on people elsewhere.
And you can help people without destroying what they know. I've built homes for the homeless, and been involved in medical help programs in third world countries. I didn't have to smash anyone's house or tell them that their way of life was bad in order to give them some food or meds.
Again, do NOT assume that I am saying what is happening in those countries is right. I think most of the dictatorships out there employ the same virtues we as a country do: exploit the weaknesses of others for personal benefit. But, revolutions have happened, people have joined forces in the past, and change, as you put it, IS inevitable.
Even with all of this, I still don't understand how helping people in the most basic of senses is corollary to the actions you suggest.
I am not dumb enough to think our governments intentions are all noble. I just don't care what thier reasons are as long as it achieves a noble end. I realize they have other reasons for being thier. The bottom line is these kind of governments have to go and no one else seems to want to do the job. If the countries that don't agree suddenly found thier borders threatend you can bet they would very quickly beome our friends. The only reason they differ now is because they have the luxury to do so. I think they should kick in and help for a change instead of riding our coat tails like they always do!
We can't impose our ideals on the rest of the world. Can't do it. Iraq is a prime example. My prediciton is that we will lose enough young men and women that our government leaves "with honor", and we'll have left a huge mess over there.
There are two sides to every story, and the failure of our government to see the other side is exactly what is driving this action. An awful lot of conservatives get so righteous, don't realize that those opposing them are thoughtful, honest people, and that righteousness has caused death and destruction.
I admit that there are occassions when I get on my high horse, but its usually just before I fall. I strongly suggest that you take a long hard look at where we are going here. I just don't see any good coming from this, not at all. The downside is that things turn to crap, they keep us in the war for another 3, 4, 5 years, the debt goes up, causes interest rates to skyrocket, and guess what, you're looking at the early 80s again, but this time, the entire world is angry with us, and it will be a long hard road to recover. That's a worse case senario, but it isn't something that we as a nation, discussed and assumed as a risk.
We were lied to on the way in, and this government continues to lie to us about the situation over there. Just now, the media is uncovering some of the truth, and it looks like Saddam intended to fight us this way from the jump (see Yahoo news for more details). Remember that his hero was Stalin, and remember what Stalin did to Hitler at Moscow. Sadam may have been a butcher, but he sure isn't stupid. This in my humble opinion is something that we should not have done, and something that we need to get out of as soon as possible, hopefully before we lose support from the rest of the world, and the UN refuses to help under any conditions.