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Is 74 enough??

Discussion in '360/430' started by Bob in Texas, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    neil e dale
    I have been a mechanic for 50 + years and have Always used never seize on many fasteners not using locktite . it does NO harm at all (used sparingly, & that's All you need ! ) and helps immensely! yes, you need to use, ( theoretically ) less torque ! you cannot ever really get an accurate torque on a used, thread, nut bolt , w/ some corrosion and threads that have stretched ever so slightly , worn etc. google research the topic you will see good technical support for never seize use and the negative is mostly just individual bias hardly expert opinion ! As we learned in academia, one should defer to the senior researcher! regards, Neil PS yes ,torque wrenches should be calibrated periodically it is VERY expensive! ask your local tool guy : snap-on, Mac etc PSS i can suggest this and similar articles ! ....
    Best Practices for Using Never-Seez® Anti-Seize and Lubricating ...

    https://www.bostik-industrial.com/never-seez-best-practices-for-using-anti-seize-and-l...

    May
     
  2. efg2014

    efg2014 Formula Junior

    Sep 14, 2014
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    One of many reasons I do not try to do my own work, setting aside the lack of : desire, tools, knowledge or space.
     
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  3. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    I can but like you, I rarely do. I defer to my mechanic and he does a great job.
     
  4. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Edit - I stated this wrong - I meant to say that the click type torque wrenches are used in many industries... Don't know how I typed that wrong...
     
  5. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    neil e dale
    not terribly difficult to torque bolts/ nuts correctly ! when I have tires mounted? I take my car to the tire shop, jack it up myself in the parking lot and R& R the wheels myself w/a manual analog breaker bar and extension ! and torque them w/a calibrated wrench ( yes and use never seize ! ) no air gun ever touches my rides !
     
  6. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    neil e dale
    and torque specs are done on clean , new, unstretched, uncorroded threads a situ never replicated in real life ! there is some safety margin for over torquing how much ? who knows ? yes one should stick to OEM specs and make recommended adjustments if using never seize
     
  7. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    I love my can of Never sieze too...but not on lugs. There is a huge amount of science devoted to nut/bolt torque. While easy to turn a wrench, it is extremely difficult to do this job right. Many industries like aerospace devote much attention to getting this right. Dave says his business spends $ thousands calibrating his torque wrenchs! There is no OEM in the world who delivers your new car on wheels with never-sieze/anti-sieze on your wheels. Anyone who has had a new car and taken their wheel off has seen that. As a convention torque specs are always dry unless a manufacturer says it is lubricated. When you use anti-sieze you have no idea what your torque spec is. You may as well forget using a torque wrench if you are going to use the oem spec and do things to change that spec at the same time. Thankfully, there appears to be a wide range of what is acceptable so that we do not have wheel chronically falling off cars. But we do have a significant issue when the loads increase and the demands are higher. We see a very serious attitude about keeping wheels on commercial trucks. They have all kinds of things to help that wheel nut indicators as an example.
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  8. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    neil e dale
    well w/ all due respect we disagree and the preponderance of experts would be on my side, ( I believe! ) Fact, you will only ever get an accurate torque on brand new parts clean and dry ONCE when brand new ! is the point! you can be close enough using never seize. and the parts will not chemically react and permanently weld themselves together! - which is what we are trying to prevent! now I made a bit of $ replacing ruined parts so affected ! but it is hardly worth the aggravation when it can be totally prevented! The only problem I've seen is folks using too much! ( never seize ) - so Don't ! If you do a literature search, a sort of mini meta data type my position will be supported .
     
  9. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Not on torque wrenches alone, all of our measuring instruments combined. And we have a lot - this is only one drawer full :)


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  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Well we will agree to disagree. Our goal is to keep wheels on cars not prevent cold welding which that stichion really is not. That stichion is really bad maintenance. Properly maintained wheels do not weld themselves to hubs and nuts don't weld themselves to studs. New parts? Of course but the engineers also factor in service life and service use when they choose those torque specs.. There is no engineering behind guessing at new torque spec lubricating a wheel nut. If your choice is a stuck lugnut where you break the stud getting it off or a wheel coming off at freeway speeds the choice is clear. You are looking at this from the hassles on the job and ease of your service. I'm looking at it from ultimate goal and safety. A wheel, lugnut, stud, and hub are consumable items.
     
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  11. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    neil e dale
    ok never had a lug nut come loose ! ( that was tight ) had chain drive sprocket bolts back out on a racing M/C once and we drilled , safety wired them ! hence , never again ! will probably be safety wiring heaps on the Ferrari ! - looks cool too ! ( love safety wire ! it's kept airplanes from crashing and gotten me out of speeding tickets several times ! police saw it and and said " gee this is safe to go fast on w/ all that safety wiring ! ) LOL true story ! here's how we secured our floor matts on our saab 9-3 viggen cv ,( it's a manual so the feet are busy ! ) used our best sunday go to meeting' brass safety wire ! the fasteners are virtually almost under the seat. as for the wheel nuts , studs seizing ? Reckon thats called galvanic corrosion ? an electrochemical reaction of dissimilar metals ? why stuff gets stuck , welded.? a tiny, the merest whisp of never seize applied w/ an acid brush will prevent it ! Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  12. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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  13. timwu12

    timwu12 Formula Junior
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    Oct 31, 2014
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    ahh, I do this with my track bikes as well!
     
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  14. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    I note in the service records of my previous 355 and current 430 Scud that Ferrari of Seattle uses 90 lb/ft on lug nuts. They check prior to and after the test drive.
    I have a pair of Utica Tools clicker torque wrenches I have had for years. I am probably the exception, but have them periodically tested in both directions and they are always spot on. Any critical measurement tool should be tested and calibrated periodically. (a friend bought a pair of Craftsman torque wrenches a few years ago, and both were out of calibration right out of the box! It is not expensive to have a torque wrench tested. Some shops have their own torque wrench tester and will check for you for free if you ask them politely.
     
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  15. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    yes we did too ! such tiny filters ! we were able to fit a much bigger (1 liter extra ! ) filter that matched the specs of the OEM saab one no room on the Ferrari - maybe a little longer ? seems a pre-oiler would be a good idea a moroso oil accumulator ? ( the leak is power steering fluid - new hoses on order ! ) Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    neil e dale
    yes was require by the rules as I recall
     
  17. Bob in Texas

    Bob in Texas Formula 3
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    Sooooo.. Both front wheels were tough to get off and when i finally did (see post #1), it looked like the problem was at the wheel pilot (as dave said its called) - that circular ring about 1/4" tall. You could see on both the pilot and in the part of the wheel that fits over it that there was corrosion (well, i don't know what to call it). Sort of like what you see on faucets with hard water. These are OEM 430 wheels.

    To prevent further freezing-up, I think I'm reading that it would be ok to use a little anti-seize around this hub--sparingly? Not on the lug bolts. That was a question
     
  18. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Bob, yes, that is likely galvanic corrosion caused by two dissimilar materials in contact. Yep, apply a very thin layer of anti- seize or grease to the pilot and all will be well. Wipe clean and reapply each time you remove wheels.
     
  19. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    neil e dale
    Yes, and most experts will concur there is nothing wrong w/ using it ( sparingly ) on the wheel studs / lug bolts as well! Read the professional literature, do a google search you will see the vast preponderance of the expert opinion is hugely in support of its use! anecdotal reports and personal opinion are sadly, always suspect! Once parts are used , Engineers will agree you will never get totally precise accurate torque reading anyway that's just reality ! read the expert advice in torque reduction required w/ never seize use...................... here are some good literature / research sources : .............................
    6 Tips for Effective Use of Anti Seize - FCP Euro's DIY Blog

    https://blog.fcpeuro.com/6-tips-for-effective-use-of-anti-seiz
    Jul 15, 2014 - In extreme situations, using anti-seize without reducing the required ... as a shortcut to aproper repair of damaged fasteners, some applications ...
    Anti-Seize Compound Application Review | Engineers Edge | www ...

    https://www.engineersedge.com/.../antiseize_compound_application_review_13389.ht..
    Anti-seize materials and compounds are used on threads, bolted joints and even ACME ... Torque should be reduced appropriately when using anti seize with ....................................................................................................................................
    Understanding The True Value Of Anti-Seize - Manufacturing.net

    https://www.manufacturing.net/article/2013/04/understanding-true-value-anti-seize Apr 5, 2013 - Although the purpose of an anti-seize may be obvious due to its name, it is a subject ... was applied to the threads of the bolt, the deviation was reduced to 3.2 percent. ... With the utilization of anti-seize, and when the proper, ...
     
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  20. Bob in Texas

    Bob in Texas Formula 3
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    Thanks to all for the input and pointing me in the right direction.
     
  21. Flea7

    Flea7 Formula Junior
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    I have titanium bolts..... Mine are at 90 lbs. ...dry
     
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  22. KC360 FL

    KC360 FL Formula Junior
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    so was there ever a determination of the proper re-calibration of the torque spec for lugs that have had Never Seize applied?
     
  23. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3

    Sep 1, 2013
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    Raimondo
    I’m not a pro but I have been turning wrenches for 35 years.

    If you read some of the material on this specific question (including the links above) There is no definitive answer.

    Personally I don’t have any problem removing my lug nuts and especially lug bolts bolts from any car. Even Bertha my 1985 plow truck that sits outside never has a problem.

    my fcar never sees rain/snow. So what specifically would adding never seize add? It only seems to complicate a relatively simple process.

    If you read the links posted, IIRC the first one specifically states not to use it on lug nuts (I would assume bolts would be included). So that post which was supposed to support its use, does quite the opposite.

    With the problems in determining an accurate new torque, I can’t see how to justify its use in situations where a particular torque is critical.



    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  24. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    Tucson AZ
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    neil e dale
    well I see no point in a senseless debate ! as always in social media, it devolves into subjective personal opinion and suspect specious spurious logic as opposed to a considered carefiull reading of relatively recent relevant readily accessible accurate sources of professional advice and or research! Just because someone eschews the use as a personal decision does not negate the vast amount of literature that supports its use ! I have always used it sparingly and always shall unless it is specifically recommended not to by a particular manufacturer or is contraindicated in a particular application! As it is clear, and well-established one cannot possibly get an accurate torque on a used dry threaded fastener , IMHO and that of the preponderance of experts, one could and dare I say should use it sparingly judiciously and appropriately if desired , w/ an appropriate reduction of torque when tightening just figure out a proper reduction ! not terribly difficult really ! and if I may ? we advise on all other vehicles ( and including a Ferrari ) don't allow anyone to EVER use an air gun tool to remove or install bolts/ nuts unless really necessary
     
  25. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3

    Sep 1, 2013
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    Huh?

    I think the question was on lug bolts. I don’t think anyone here will argue with the utility of never seize. I agree you should use what ever and where ever you wish. I am a big fan of the stuff and use it frequently.

    My point was how can one recommend a particular torque? There is no exact conversion constant.

    Just because there is now an error in torquing a previously torqued bolt doesn’t mean this error is made better by adding a lubricant and guessing on a conversion because of the lube.

    I personally haven’t seen many problems with dry fitted lug nuts/bolts seizing, especially in pampered cars. Have you?

    I think this actually morphed into a great thread because I have gotten an education in the benefits, and complexities of lubing threads and torquing.


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