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Is ferrari market SLOW ?

Discussion in '308/328' started by tommyworld, Dec 10, 2004.

  1. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
    1,801
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Christian
    Tommy,
    I have had my TR for a month and I live in the Los Angeles Area. I'll throw in my 2 cents because I was a recent buyer and actually saw your ad but passed. I buy and sell my fun cars about twice a year. Last month If I remember correctly there was an 89 and 90 both with 15-17k miles Red/Tan. One in the Chicago area ($56k) and the other at a Ferrari dealership in CT for $64,500. It's supply and demand. If there arent any comps, you could get $65k no problem. Unfortunatly it is a bad time of year to sell an exotic and there are others with similar history and less miles . At this level of auto, most TR's are very presentable and have a clean Carfax. If you have to move the car I would drop it to the magic $59,999. I't a mental thing. If not wait untill spring thaw.
    Christian
     
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  3. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,253
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I think the main problem with trying to get 60K for a TR with 34K on it is that for 70K you can get a perfect, low mileage, fresh service example, so you have to find a buyer who simply can't afford more than 60K. Also, people are looking at another expensive service in about 2 years with this one.

    Fred Parker makes a good point. I have seen cars with 20K on them that looked pretty beat. You have to suspect rollback. I have also seen cars with 40K on them that were still cherry and obviously well loved. I do know a guy who bought a 308 brand new in 84. He put 30K on it and sold it a few years ago. It ran good, but looked like it had 100K on it because of lack of care.

    Dave
     
  4. tommyworld

    tommyworld Rookie

    Jun 1, 2004
    33
    San Diego
    Full Name:
    tommy g
    well i guess what i'm hearing is around 60 is the magic #. thanks everyone for all your views. if i do change price maybe i'll change add too.
     
  5. 1975gt4don

    1975gt4don Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    662
    Peoples Rep of CA
    Full Name:
    Smog Exempt
    give the queen worshippers what they want: change the speedo.


     
  6. tommyworld

    tommyworld Rookie

    Jun 1, 2004
    33
    San Diego
    Full Name:
    tommy g
    Did i say 34,000 miles? What i meant was 34 miles. And those miles were only from when i moved it around in the garage so me and my friends can stare at it from different angles and drink glasses of white wine.
     
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  8. JTranfield

    JTranfield Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2003
    665
    NYC, London
    Full Name:
    J Tranfield
    After owning 6 Ferraris over the years, I have test drove many more. What I have noticed is that there are a lot of Ferraris out there that have low miles indicated on the odometer, but far fewer with real low miles. Unless a lot of folks just get in and out of their cars alot and press the throttle pedal without driving the car , I suspect that there have been a lot of speedometers disconnected over the years. You just don't get a lot of seat and throttle pedal wear in 5k miles. I know I drove my ex-TR over 50k miles and it still had paint on the throttle pedal. And, while the drivers' side seat bolster did show some wear, it was not nearly as bad as I've seen on cars showing only 5k to 10k miles. I have driven my Boxer over 8k miles in the last 22 months and have not worn the seat bolster one iota. While I know that there are some true low mileage Ferraris out there, remember, caveat emptor!

    Couldn't agree more, a Ferrari is one of the easiest cars in the world to clock.
    Generally speaking once a car is over 20 years old condition is all that counts as its nearly impossible to verify mileage.
     
  9. tommyworld

    tommyworld Rookie

    Jun 1, 2004
    33
    San Diego
    Full Name:
    tommy g
    SOLD it yesterday. kinda sad but looking forward to 360 purchase. i will be checking prices for next 6 months or so.
    Thanks everyone,
    currrent non-ferrari owner
     
  10. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Wow, so you sold it.

    Congratulations and condolences at the same time since you're not a Ferrari owner (for the time being :))

    So, how did the buyer find you? If it was via an advertisement, may I ask which advertisement attracted the buyer?
     
  11. gdbsti

    gdbsti Formula Junior

    Oct 10, 2004
    283
    Nor Cal
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    I was a first time buyer a couple of months ago and agree 100% with that comment too. I saw some very "marginal" low mile cars. It is all about condition.
     
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  13. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    I don't think it's nearly impossible to verify mileage. I think on the contrary. If you can't determine whether the mileage indicated on the car is accurate, something is wrong--with both you and the car.

    If a car has service records, then the car's mileage is documented. The mileage increases as the dates of the service records progress.

    A car that doesn't have service records is a car that I would be suspicious of, for it might have had the odometer rolled back. But the mileage of a car with service records and no stories is absolutely verifiable. Cars that come from auctions are suspect; and so is any car sold by a seller who can't answer the simple questions: "Where did the car come from?" "Who was the previous owner?" I laugh my a$s off when I ask a seller on the phone where the car came from and he says, "Gee, I don't know! I'll have to find out for you." "Oh it was sold to us by a local guy who got it from another guy who got it from..."

    My car had three owners before me and I know exactly who they are and when they bought the car, etcetera.

    Carfax enables you to check the registration and ownership history. The history of a car with a single owner can be traced very easily--the dealer at which the car was service can be contacted, etcetera. The history of a car with multiple owners is more difficult to trace, but still with a little effort one should be able to find out about the car. One can certainly try talk to dealers who worked on the car if not contact the previous owners themselves.

    I don't subscribe to the conventional wisdom that perpetuates fear-mongering about odometer rollbacks. An odometer rollback cannot easily survive the without detection; it can't survive the scrutiny of a buyer who asks questions and finds out answers.

    If I were to try an odometer rollback scheme, I would roll the odomoeter back on a car to lessen the severity of high mileage. For example, I'd roll it back from 50,000 to 30,000. Rolling back an odometer from high mileage to very low mileage (like under 10,000) and subsequently getting away with it constitute a difficult task in my estimation.
     
  14. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    The whole milage thing with Ferraris is like the crazy grandmother in the basement, noone likes to admit the truth.Even though their car may have high miles in reality if the odometer says 25k thats all that matters for saleability.

    The perception that you need a Ferrari with 15k miles or its wore out is funny, I can guarantee many Ferraris out their have much higher miles on them than the odometer states, it's just too easy to change or disconnect the odometer, you can have a 45k mile car thats wore out in perception vs the magic 25-30k mile car thats much more saleable and desireable, its funny how may Ferraris are for sale with 30k miles,must be a conspiracy of sorts, next the trend will be set the milage to 20k miles


    Those that think service records or carfax will show mileage issues are fooling themselves also, a Ferrari gets serviced maybe once a year whats so hard about disconnecting the speedo after you bring it in? The same with Carfax, disconnect the speedo after you buy it, the emmission test guys that report mileage don't know if its connected or care either.
     
  15. gdbsti

    gdbsti Formula Junior

    Oct 10, 2004
    283
    Nor Cal
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    ok, so when was the last time you went to buy a 20+ year old car and turned it down because they couldn't supply the full service history and previous owners information? Carfax doesn't go back that far so none of it is guaranteed.

    We're talking older cars here, not new 5 year old or so. Yes, I would want to know full history on a 5 y/o car too, but please enlighten us with your experience in the older car market when you actually go shopping for and buy one.
     
  16. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    348SStb, your theory is only true if the past owners were dummies or too lazy to reconnect the speedo on occasion or both. However, I once knew a guy personally that would drive their Ferrari most of the time with the speedo disconnected. In fact they had an index card in the car with an rpm to mph table so they knew how fast they were going at any time by looking at the tach. When they needed service, they would reconnect the speedo a week or so before so the mileage would be a little higher than the last time they had the car in for service. So the service records over the years showed mileage increases of 500 miles a year or so .While they drove their car at least 3k to 4k miles a year, the odometer only showed about 500 miles per year.
     
  17. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    I seem to have largely ignored the 20+ years stipulation in this debate. Yes, I agree--it's tough to verify mileage on cars that old. I was thinking more modern--like late 80s, so I recognize the flaw in my argument which has inspired dissent.

    That said, no--I would not buy an older car that is suspect. I would not buy a 20+ year-old car if I couldn't identify who the owners were, how many there were, where the car was serviced, etcetera. Others may disagree, and I respect that. Said car could very well be in excellent physical and mechanical condition, regardless of whether the mileage was rolled back. Said car would just not be something for me.

    I still believe that the mileage of a (not 20+ year-old) car, which shows low mileage on the odometer, can be verified using various methods. I've mentioned some and one good method was mentioned by a poster here, which was to look at the wear on the seats or other wear and tear items and make a calculation as to whether the mileage corresponds sensibly to the wear. Again, other methods should be used in the overall test.
     
  18. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Interesting.

    This is additional ammunition to the argument that garage queens should be avoided! Cars with low mileage that apparently show very little usage were either not driven at all or driven with the odometer disconnected. :)

    Either way, stay away! :D
     
  19. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:
    Kenneth
    Mileage isn't as important as condition, and I don't mean just the obvious paint, engine and leather interior. Lots of little plastic trim parts break with age and can get quite expensive to replace. Things like wheel bearings go bad; are there service records for these? When was the clutch, water pump and brakes last replaced? When I bought my 1972 Lotus, I looked for all these things but only back about 6 years. I figured if it wasn't done in 6 years, it had to be done anyway. I was right too! The mileage was 46k and that seemed accurate; it was a one owner car and he had everything back to the bill of sale. But that mileage didn't mean squat to me; it could have been 75k or 25k. The car had good points and some issues and my final purchase price reflected this, not the mileage.

    Of course, if I thought it was really 146k miles I would have done a much more thourough inspection then I did.

    Ken
     
  20. gdbsti

    gdbsti Formula Junior

    Oct 10, 2004
    283
    Nor Cal
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    We may have strayed a little off topic (with the 20yr+ quotes sorry) but I agree with seat and pedal wear being reasonable indicators to compare mileage on the odo v. what may be real, hence condition being big indicator of mileage rather than the clock itself. Other items I've noticed wearing are things like carpets, door locks and latches, steering play and wheel bearings.

    I get fairly wound up when told by a seller, "Yeah, all original mileage, receipts etc" to turn up and take a look at a car which is then obviously way beyond the odo reading with 6 or 7 receipts over the previous 10 years or so. Time wasters... I'm drifting off topic again here.. End of rant..
     
  21. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Back on topic...

    No, the Ferrari market is not slow :)
     
  22. Hunters360

    Hunters360 Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2004
    329
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    James Wardwell
    I totally disagree with you... Ferrari's interiors in general do not wear well.
    2 reasons poor dye products and fittment of vinyl and leather...another major reason...! take this example im 6'5'280lbs these cars are made for 5'4" 120 lbs racers. I have a 1990 348 Tb with 11k i have owned since new the vhicle exterior is excellant 9.5. but the seats have to be refinished do to peeling and cracking.. some of the plastics have cracked...my 00 360 is starting to show wear on the seats with only 5.5k miles on it...
     
  23. Helmut

    Helmut Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2004
    635
    After reading and learning from the Fchat, I start to realise that I have become somewhat of a group-being, is it and AA type of desire to comment just to get the weight of Ferrari addiction off ones chest I don't know but I feel it has grabbed me a bit and yes I am also the owner of a Ferrari as of very recently.
    I love some of the posts I have read regarding the overvalued odometer reading of older Ferraris and the amazing fact that almost every 308 has about 20 to 30k miles on it etc.
    I would not trust a 30 year old car that has 10K miles on it. (unless everything else is a 10)

    I will now confess to my insanity as it certainly must seem to people who demand to know the exact history of a car etc. I bought a 78 308GTS by a somewhat unconsciously directed accident. I submitted a bid on ebay which I was 100% sure would not win (or at least 99% :) amazingly though my bid won and I had to stand my grounds.
    My main reasons to buy the car were: The seller seemed honest, he was a carguy and I believed the things he said about the car. My biggest concern was #1Rust/straight body #2 Engine/Transmission.
    I never saw the car before I bought it and I don't know anything really about its history besides that supposedly some Lindsey Wagner owned it and that the engine was supposedly rebuilt (which may be true but compression and leakdown test have yet to be done)
    I know the car has more then 100K miles on it but I don't really care. It will get a beautiful new paintjob and a new interior. I will replace every little rubberpart thats cracked under the car and make it my hobby until its perfect. I have to say I enjoy it already much more then I had anticipated just by reading you guys's comments on this forum, there are some real originals cruising through here. I am amazed at how helpful people are with input and comments as they themselves are obviously bitten by the same addiction. After I got the car, I felt that I got exactly what I had expected.
    The body is straight, it has extremely minimal/no rust and the engine idles perfectly, the transmission is perfectly tight without strange noises and the clutch feels good. I could of course list a million things that this car needs but I think I can manage those.
    I am originally from Europe and I know that right now if this car could sell here for $25.000 when it is done up then I could sell it in Europe for 30.000 Euros which means $40.000 so I am basically looking forward to a lot of fun driving a car which will most likely make me money in the long run, I may even be able to afford a pretty hefty engine rebuild and still not lose too much.
    Now in my book a engine that has been redone by a place like Carobu for example is worth way more than any 30 year old 10K mile car, given that everything else is in ecellent shape as well.

    Helmut
     

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