Is this the right forum for an argument.. ?.. Yes it is ...no it isn't ..yes it is... I'm arguing in my spare time...
Clint believe what you want, but this opinion is not my creation. I don''t see this as one side is more right than the other. So far, I think they are both ridiculous. But I do look at the paper trail. If you go back and read all the written documents, Mosley's last offer was in fact a compromise from his prior offer. FOTA's last offer was a backtrack. Negotiation is compromise. All they had to do was publically state they would not go along blindly and remove conditional entries, and then offer what financial program they have come up that allows new teams to thrive in F1, and propose a fair governance program. If it were me, this would be my take it or leave offer. If they did that, and still got the same follow me anywhere response from Mosley, then it would be time to move on. I would not want the FIA to have a complete change of heart, I happen to agree with their basic concepts of cost reduction, but not their methods or timing. But that is not what happened. Instead, this has now totally become a power struggle between certain individuals. I am sure people in the paddock would agree with that. If you really want to look at this fairly, don't take any sides. For example, why wasn't something along this counter-offered by FOTA: "The way by which we reduce the costs needs to be agreed. Principally it's a process issue. Our company had to restructure at the start of this year following the withdrawal of Honda. Some companies are much larger and have agreements with their staff. Those based in Germany and Italy, there are trade unions involved." Brawn's Nick Fry.
If they say it enough times they believe it must be right, but at the end of the day just don't get it.. Max has made and given the FIA a big wide spread power base, and he abuses it, nearly everyone disagrees with the way he deals/rules the sport. He must accept that this is not the way to run the sport, his manner in this day and age is totally draconian and pathetic. IMO the teams have gone to great lengths to reach a compromise, I believe they are close to deal in regards to most of the issues. But the main one is governance, personally I would not want Mosley a million light years near the sport, but if he wants to save the sport, why does he not agree to the teams deals, or least resign. He is not F1 never has been, never will be.
True. The most intense conflicts, if overcome, leave behind a sense of security and calm that is not easily disturbed, he said. It is just these intense conflicts and their conflagration which are needed to produce valuable and lasting results. Carl Jung.
Kinda like afterglow. BTW a poll on Manipe F1 has over 90% of fans saying they'd follow a FOTA series over a FIA one.
It really does not surprise me Dave, the masses have spoken and the teams are aware of it. I want to see Ferrari race with the best competition produced, on the best tracks with the best drivers. And I would follow no matter what it's called.. I keep saying the teams only need to focus on removing Max, the rest could be deemed as posturing and it would be a big deal starting a fresh series, but having said that if they could secure Monaco and get Bernie on side job done. Max will then enter a sex dungeon, and never be seen again.
But, Ron, that's exactly what they did, and they got the same response from him - Again: "Sign up, unconditionally, and then we can talk...... He's shown time and again he can't be trusted so why the hell would they go along?..... In the past, he managed to divide and conquer, and I honestly believe he thought he could do the same again (split Ferrari away, scare 'em into disarray and so on) - While that was successful with the "garagistes", it simply isn't going to work with the big guys - As long as they stand together, and at last they've realiszed that is the key. I really think he's gone crazy! - Consensus was it happened with JMB, now it's happened to him. Sad. Cheers, Ian
From another thread but to the point; "I commented above but I wish to add more. Bernie and Max must really be screwed up; they have to have figured out by now how badly they have ruined a once great sport. Usually, you would think the fans would be upset at thge teams effectively destroying the sport (example: the MLB and NHL strikes). You know something is really wrong when the fans cheer for the teams withdrawing from the sport. How bad does the governing body have to be for there to be an almost unanimous feeling from the fans that they are better off somewhere else. Mark "
The Lions have finally figured out the guy in the middle of the ring has but a whip and a chair, and.... well.... They are Lions !
Nope. It's about governance. The money aspect was never an issue, because both FOTA and the FIA want to save money. Max's words belie his actions however, as he has done precisely the opposite of saving money over the years. It is all about governance. Period. And all of the above are *governance* issues. And what you say is needed (and I agree), are all things the FIA has flat out refused to grant to the teams. There will be no committee review of rules and regulations. There will be no standards set as to implementation. Those are things the teams want, and those are things Max refused to provide. He refuses to compromise on governance. Nope. If they were met with apathy, the teams wouldn't have worked on cost saving proposals and compromised on some things. They did. Therefore, clearly they were not apathetic. Nope. It does not need to be solely about money. The FIA agrees with me because they introduced a non-level spending playing field, and wanted to have technology sharing between teams, which FOTA agreed with. Nope. They presented those figures to the FIA. Nope. Limiting how much is spent does not increase engineering - it stymies it... every time. Nope. My example of Super Aguri and Minardi illustrates precisely the problem... capping your budget does not lead to more ingenuity. That is what you claimed. Even the FIA isn't proposing to make all teams spend the same. No, it is not a yes or no question. There can be restrictions that help the smaller teams that do not take the form of a budget cap. That is clear. Even the FIA agrees, because they had agreed to a measure whereby the big teams help the small teams in tech transfer. You are attempting to change my argument and create a scenario that is yes/no, but I never said there can't be spending limits or that it was all or nothing, budget caps or unlimited spending - it's not an all or nothing situation. Pot. Kettle. Nope. You are taking every rumor and news story and proclaiming them to be true. Except you're wrong... because the teams said they were willing to commit until 2012. That blows away your arguments that Toyota, MB, Renault could drop out. They were willing to commit. Nope. Post a link on this - it's completely untrue. Nope. I said FOTA would be the pinnacle of engineering. You disagreed, stating (and I quote) So you say unless someone starts an unlimited series, F1 will be the pinnacle. This is not true. If F1 has budget caps and FOTA does too, there is no way that USF1 and other small teams are going to beat out Ferrari and McLaren in their own series also with budget caps. It's right there in print Ron... you said that even with budgetary restrictions, F1 will continue to be the pinnacle, unless an unlimited series comes along. That's just not the case. Between F1 and FOTA, FOTA will have much more engineering than F1 will, because the resources of the FOTA teams are orders of magnitude higher. I believe I have made my point - F1 will cease to be the pinnacle of engineering. Sorry for the ridiculously long post - I'm sure nobody read it I gotta get to work - Ron I will be back tomorrow to argue with you some more! Go have a Tecate and get a backrub or something