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Is it true the Enzo only got 2000 hours of wind tunnel testing

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Jameel, Dec 18, 2003.

  1. Jameel

    Jameel Formula Junior

    Nov 4, 2003
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    I was just watching the Discovery channel show about the making of the Ferrari Enzo and something struck me as a little odd. They mentioned it only had 2000 hours of wind tunnel testing. How can this be, considering the F360 had over 5000 hours!

    Anybody know for sure?
     
  2. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Surprising given the comparison, but they seemed to have gotten a lot of downforce out of the design anyway - they probably didn't count all the CAD/ or other computer simulation that could take the place of the actual windtunneling.

    More computer time would be my guess. But still, that's almost a whole year of 8 hour days! That's a lot of wind!
     
  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Not to me. The Enzo is a show mobile that never has to race under the Ferrari umbrella ... why it even got any wind tunnel time at all is beyond me. The car has no purpose but to pose.

    Love the concept but put it on the track Ferrari!

    Pete
     
  4. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
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    You're talking through your backside again, Peter. The Enzo has extraordinary performance. There is no need for it to race. It's a road car. Ferrari race F1....quite successfully at times.
     
  5. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
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    I admit up front I'm not an automotive engineer, but the number that is surprising to me is the 5000 hrs for the 360. Wow! Even 2000 hrs seems like a lot of wind tunnel time. Any aerodynamic or automotive engineers reading this are solicited for comments.

    Gary
     
  6. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,352
    Maybe they got it close at first modeling.
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    My backside believes that true performance is NOT magazine figures but can only be measured by on the track performances ... everything else is BS.

    Yes Ferrari race F1, and do very well at that currently, but their top most road car SHOULD IMO prove itself as a real performance car by racing.

    Do not get me wrong, I have read most of the articles about the Enzo, etc. and yes it appears to be fast, but it is real easy to make a road car that is impressive, but way harder to make a track car that has real constant lasting performance. I am ashamed of Ferrari for no longer believing it their other products enough to track them.

    Once upon a time Ferrari would race any of their cars and be man enough to accept loosing ocassionally and go home and improve their car and come back and win. Now they are too scared, just like those pimply road racing boys that only will race at the traffic light, and never on the track ... this is so they always have an excuse for loosing.

    Real man and REAL cars prove their performance on the track ... others just talk BS!

    The Enzo is a great car, but it will always trail say the McLaren F1 because the McLaren has won on the track and proved itself.

    Anyway my backside has said enough :) ... and in the end it is just my opinion, but I am a racer not a poser and why Ferrari build cars with that sort of performance for cruising with the latest bimbo passenger is beyond me ... the F360 and F550 do the job just as well, if not better. I would not even buy a car like that unless I had a race series lined up for it, as I would feel like a total toser cruising around using less than 100 hp of it's 600 hp to get to the next traffic light first. Yes most owners will track their Enzos and have a lot of fun, but again in the end entering REAL races and beating the opposition is what that sort of performance is for ... and the Enzo would be distroyed by the Audi Le Mans car, etc. ... or maybe NOT, but Ferrari is too scared to even try :(

    Shame on Ferrari ... new cowards taking over from Lambo!

    Pete's backside
     
  8. racerking

    racerking Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    Anyone know when this show will re-air?

    Thanks
     
  9. moretti

    moretti Four Time F1 World Champ
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    well the funny thing about the number of hours they spent on the 360 and still getting it wrong is amusing.

    I know a few people who have resorted to putting a wing on their car (something Aircon and I would never consider!! Right PP?) as the 360 seems to suffer severe lose of downforce when the car is at certain angles to the road at very high speeds!!
    This allows the car to move about dangerously (spin, spin, spin) so the thousands of hours didn't help there.

    The Enzo has got movable wings which come into operation as the speeds increases (some actually retract!! as the speed goes up) so maybe the 2000 hrs is all they needed to prove the stability whereas the 360 needed more as they were trying to prove it didn't need it ??
     
  10. 550syd

    550syd Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
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    What was the show called? I'd love to catch it when it's on next.
     
  11. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    Wings are evil and ugly, Moretti....and bit like you, really...but yeah, a mutual friend that Moretti and I "share" never had a problem with his 355CH (nor have I with mine) but he had a HUGE spin that happened so fast that it unnerved him. 190KPH turn one at Phillip Island. *shudder*

    I think Ferrari have outsmarted themselves with the 360. Only very good drivers need apply!
     
  12. ferrari_kid

    ferrari_kid Formula Junior

    Jul 5, 2003
    768
    i'm going to guess the masser version of the enzo won't cut it for the track version right?

    i guess it's been a while since they've entered one of their supercars in a race. wasn't the rumor that they pulled the F50GT because they were afraid it wasn't up to par? seems like since enzo died they haven't really built a supercar for a race series. if this whole thing about them being scared to race their supercar in a series is true, they should stop worrying about their reputation that they have to uphold and just race. even if they lose the worst that could happen is they learn from their mistakes and build a better car.

    how many hours do the F1 cars get in the tunnel?
     
  13. VMax

    VMax F1 Rookie

    Nov 21, 2003
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    All of them ;)

    I think Ferrari's F1 tunnel runs 24hr/day or close to it. I believe they use their old, smaller scale wind tunnel (presuming they still have it - they built a new one in the late 90s/early 00s IIRC) for the road cars.

    They've also struck a deal of some kind with Sauber, which is no doubt very complex, involving Felipe Massa, Giancarlo Fisichella, Ferrari testing, Sauber race driving, Ferrari engines for Sauber and Ferrari use of the brand spanking Sauber wind tunnel - apparently the most sophisticated in F1. Oh, and there's probably a massive wedge of cash involved somewhere there too.
     
  14. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
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    OLD AGE getting the better of you Pete???? Obviously your memory isn't what it used to be. I had an equally "HUGE spin" in my 355 Challenge (with wing) at the sweeper at Winton. If memory serves me correctly, that was a 180kph backwards exit from the black stuff as well. Rates as a "problem" in my book.............
    It's simply physics- at some point your over the limit for the situation and your going to lose it. Obviously you don't try that hard since you got your seniors card!!!

    As you hate evil and ugly wings so much, you won't want to be seen in my new toy then I guess?
     
  15. moretti

    moretti Four Time F1 World Champ
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    well, far be it for me to defend grandpa Pless but in the case of the 360 I think they have outsmarted themselves by making a car so glued to the track by using sophisticated under car aerodynamics but with a blind spot for high speed corners where the angle of attack of the airflow causes the car to lose downforce and leaves it open to a spin, as any F1 car will do when they lose their wing.

    I think it would be very hard to simulate this type of effect in a windtunnel but you will notice that all the 360ch cars eventually had a wing which suggests they didn't quite get it right.....

    And don't 360s generate the same downforce as a 355ch with a wing ?
     
  16. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    Oh yeah...I forgot about that one. BUT....was it totally unexpected like the spin in the 360? As I recall, you didn't feel that you were going at a silly speed when it happened.
     
  17. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
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    the 360 was thge 1st car to go with a predominant theme of emphasising undertrays and diffusers to generate downforce. ferrari, probably, applied a lot of that development to the enzo -- regardless, 2000 hours at doing anything is a ****load of time. c'mon dude, 2000 hours JUST in the wind tunnel? think about it.
     
  18. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
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    It happened when I decided to try going in with the gas nailed one gear higher. As you pointed out with the 360, it was unexpected and largely unexplained. Yes it's very nervous on the limit; but it's a higher limit than the 355....

    I have never read the downforce figure for a winged 355 Challenge, so no idea if the 360 road car matches it.
     
  19. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I recall a video clip (Top Gear, I think) that said the stock 360 had 4 times the downforce of the stock 355.

    I personally like the N-GT nose and spoiler kits.
     
  20. TimN88

    TimN88 F1 Veteran

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    they probably used alot of stuff they learned from the 5000 hours of testing with the 360. You can also be sure that there was alot of CFD stuff that isnt counted in the wind tunnel time because its done on a computer.
     
  21. Mattn03

    Mattn03 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2003
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    Does anyone know when this show will re-air? What was the title of the show? Thanks!
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I don't agree with this statement. All the addition of a wing means that for racing they want MORE downforce than is needed for stability on the road. That is all!

    Again one has to remember that a car designed for the road (even a Ferrari) is a compromise compared to a car designed 100% for the track. Thus they did not want a wing for road because of looks and possible legistration (in some countries I believe) reasons, but on the track function comes before looks ... and they want even MORE downforce.

    You can also never have enough downforce on a track ... F1 would have a lot more if they were allowed to!

    Pete
     
  23. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    PSK..i worry about you sometimes. Did you happen to notice how many drivers were pranging their 360CH cars? Why do you think they put the wings on? There was nowhere near the carnage in the 355ch series (pre or post wings)
     
  24. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    No I have never seen a race 355 or 360 CH series.

    My statement still stands but I do have to agree that if there were more accidents due to loss of control in the 360 series that the 360 series is a little less forgiving ... but road car downforce versus race car have very little to do with one another. One is a huge compromise the other is as much as the rules will allow.

    Pete
     

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