Is more HP better?

I keep browsing the F chat forums, and it seems that every week another automobile manufacturer turns out a 400hp family car. These aren't supercars anymore, these are cars that Mrs. Makeup, or Mr. Cellphone will be driving on their way to work. These are cars that will be redlined by any wannabe gonnabe who thinks he's the **** on the freeway. The current HP craze is futile; The *adrenaline rush* that these soccer moms and desk jockies soil themselves over is nothing more than uncontrolled speed. All of a sudden we have a proliferation of the Mario Andretti gene, but its a shame, because the reality is only a handful are actually capable of being responsible behind a 200mph - 2 ton piece of metal.

Whats my problem? An increased amount of auto accidents, high speed chases, irresponsible driving, and mostly- INSURANCE RATES. I do believe that once the norm of 400-500 hp daily drivers catches on, insurance rates will rise in correlation.

My advice? Put a factory limit of 90 mph on the cars. Unless theres actual documentation of track days and/or defensive driving courses, who has the right to endanger others? Especially not Ms. Swervefromsquirrels who decides it was a smart thing to christen the car with a 150mph run. I've seen too many people driving while simultaneously talking on the cell phone, putting lipstick on, yelling at the kids in the backseat, and listening to the Shrek DVD on their flatscreen TV.

Of course, I know theres people that are completely responsible, and are in fact capable of operating these high performance machines- at speed. A minority. Real enthusiasts, like most of you on even F-Chat, are probably more than adequate drivers. People that take the time to track their cages, that responsibly practice driving at high speeds before they attempt such a feat on public roads, that are knowledgeable about the consequences and operation of their vehicles. These people are entitled to the benefits of a performance car.

But what about those that aren't?

 

Don't worry...

With all this increase in HP the speed limits will increase accordingly.

 

Jason, as a fellow biker, I understand where you are coming from. The short answer is No!

However, I don't think that speed governers are the answer. But I haven't really given much thought to a different approach. One side of me says that ever increasing horsepower is proof that Darwin still lives. The other side doesn't want these people any where near me or my family.

Dale

 

The High HP cars are still high end.
But in a few years they will be used for 15 to 20k.
Then the 20 year old drivers will be able to afford them.
Thats when its time to look out!!!

They will end up wraped around trees, and become rare like the muscle cars are now.

 

Sorry. I'm no Joan Claybrook. I have no problem with the hp increase at all.

 

I do. Why? Simple, every time some kid loses it with his nitrous ricer and wastes a soccer mom in a mommy wagon, the hue and cry goes up to put hot rodders in jail.

Besides, the soccer mom might just happen to be my wife.

Dale

 

Now I'm not pointing fingers here, but someone needs to get laid.


-DC

 

kick it to me! kick it to me!

 

My advice? Go F--- yourself! But advice is worth what you pay for it wouldn't ya say?

 

Thats nice you have your own viewpoint, but can you give me some insight as to why its such a good thing? Maybe something with more content than just "go !@#$ yourself". I'm trying to have a discussion, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

Sorry if I offended you in some way with my original post.

 

To be honest, i agree with him in all aspects except for the speed limiter. In reality, only a handful of people with these supercars or even mediocre cars such as a 911 or an M3 are capable of pushing it hard. In reality, most people with these cars have little or no track, car control, or high performance driving experience. I showed up at a local euro car club meet here in CA and was astonished by some of the sloppy driving i saw on public roads. All people are acquainted with is understeer, and most have no experience in cars that are picky. These are people who brake midcorner and lift of the throttle because they come in at egregiously high speeds. Luckily for me, the people in my area don't drive 360's and 911's all too often, but it would frighten me to see these people in these cars, trying to take them to even 80% of their capability. I learned to drive fast in a slow, but balanced and decent handling car, a '92 318is. Yet now, people are buying their kids brand new M3's at 18 (a post on this forum let me in on that one)!! How could anyone at 18 know how to drive that car at its limit? That kid is probably not even aware of how to control a car with 100 hp at the limits of adhesion, yet here he is in a 330 hp sports car with probably no track or car control experience. Car makers need to do away with the superfluous BHP, remove the electronic committee's, and let people learn to drive before they get in over their head.

 

Maybe I went overboard with the whole governer thing, but really what else could be done ?

 

What should be done. Much better driving instruction. Anyone can buy a car and get a license w/o much experience behind the wheel, especially in a high HP car. Experience would be a major help. Why not have people puller over for excessive speeding take a high performance driving school, at least they would have a clue if something went wrong the next time they're doing it. They make drunks take alcohol awareness courses don't they.

 

I'll play:

Driving lessons?

Parents actually PARENTING?

 

ok, points well taken ... but hey, the rest of the car matches the 500hp too. 15 years ago, the "average" sedan did not have 285 tires, nor did it 280mm disc brakes with super-evolutive ABS (or even BAS, te thingie that brakes 100% for you). Then there are ESP and the likes, who keep the afore-mentioned soccer moms and cellphone dads more or less in-line with the road.
And what about crush areas in the frame/body, that keeps people inside safer at higher speeds, how about active suspension, that may help you avoid the truck coming in front. How about dual stage airbags ... 7 airbags, these cars have (for the most part) 5 or 7 airbags!!! 15 years ago, you were lucky if you could get a optional driver airbag. How about the adaptative steering on the new Bimmer 6? That's safety for ******* who can't drive! Throw the wheel onlock at 120mph, and you're just gonna change lanes.

That's where your whole thinking is flawed. Cars are not an engine. Cars must be seen as a whole, and if the engines are more powerful, so will be the brakes and steering and controls and passive safety.

Speed is not unsafe per se. There hundreds of miles of well maintained highway that on some occasions (clear skies, no traffic or 3 lanes with no one in the middle lane) will be perfectly safe for driving wide open. Where it gets unsafe is at 370km/h, where the tires start shredding. Now that's not funny, and the car is not as a whole anymore. And that's dangerous.

BTW, try to make me buy a speed limited car, and it will be chipped before you can say "bye". I'm not one to let others, especially bureaucrats, tell me what to do, and I sure as hell am not gonna let myself be pulled down by idiots. I'm not gonna watch my fun factor screech to a halt because others can't behave. If you ask me, Autobahn everywhere, a real test before you get your license, and let the people take responsibilities for their behavior.

And anyways ... 90mph? When you're not payign attention, 30 mph is unsafe. Make the license a real test, where people understand that driving is not going from point A to point B while being bored. It requires your fullest attention ... pushed to the extreme, there should be no radio, no DVD, just a wheel and pedals. Heck, when the conditions are nasty, I turn off the radio. I'm the only one to do it among my bunch of friends ... why didn't they get that sort of common sense taught.

Make cars faster, and make drivers actually capable drivers. Yes, that would eventually ruin the country because you'd sell 90% less cars, 90% less gas, and 60% wouldn't be able to go to work anymore. Compromise is where it's at, I guess.

 

Well the AMG mercedes benz are limited to 155 mph...........dont ask me why

 

because in Germany the highways have no speed limit, and they somewhat agree to limit their vehicles' speed. The RS6 plus still has an extra 30km/h. And Porsche doesn't limit their cars.
It's convenient too. close to 2 tons at 300km/h, that's alot of extra stress on teh tires, suspension or brakes ...

 

Zorro you mentioned safety features available for the driver, not for the victims getting hit. It doesn't matter if the rest of the car matches the engine, if you don't know how to handle a car than having a large contact patch on the road wont help much when you're accidently oversteering.

"And anyways ... 90mph? When you're not payign attention, 30 mph is unsafe. Make the license a real test, where people understand that driving is not going from point A to point B while being bored. It requires your fullest attention ... pushed to the extreme, there should be no radio, no DVD, just a wheel and pedals. Heck, when the conditions are nasty, I turn off the radio. I'm the only one to do it among my bunch of friends ... why didn't they get that sort of common sense taught."

Exactly. And thats what I was trying to say. Theres TOO MANY ****ty drivers on the road to allow widespread access to high performance cars!

 

Perhaps you missed the part about large brakes, ABS, BAS, ESP and active body control. These chips do a lot to keep you on the road.
In addition, cars are safer when you get hit too, they are higher (less prone to sweeping people) and plastic bumpers sure hurt less than metal ones.

Too many sh!tty drivers = yes. To prohibit performance cars? Why?

Ok, fast cars are prohibited.
We all drive a Prius. Still goes 60mph. Has crappy zero grip green tires, the brakes look like they're off a mountain bike, the door are plastic... etc. It can't slalom for crap, can't brake much because its tires have no grip, you can't accelerate much (if a truck can't brake, well ... you're not getting out of the way that easily). Try to swerve at highway speeds. In a Prius ... then in a, say ... uh ... E55. I'm taking bets the Prius understeers under the stalled truck whereas the E55 driver suffered a slight cardiac rythm increase.

Slow cars are NOT safer. As a matter of fact, they are ridiculously unsafe.

Perhaps this has to do with the general pussification and refusal to take responsibility of the current society, but a fast car is safer per definition, because it is overbuilt and over-engineered for everyday use, but people still refuse to understand the best safety feature is your brain. If people were taught that rather than parallel parking, we'd all be fine


Dude, I'm all for discussion, but you better bring good points if you intend to convince me fast cars are more dangerous than slow ones!!! But we agree, people are stupid.

edit - forgot to mention, people who buy performance cars actually care for a large majority about their driving. The aforementioned friends who don't give a crap about it drive POSs and are satisfied with them. Come to think of it, their crappy Civic with tires worn to the wire, and shocks with dinosaur oil still in them are probably even more dangerous than a 500hp Benzie ...

 

"Slow cars are NOT safer. As a matter of fact, they are ridiculously unsafe.

Perhaps this has to do with the general pussification and refusal to take responsibility of the current society, but a fast car is safer per definition, because it is overbuilt and over-engineered for everyday use, but people still refuse to understand the best safety feature is your brain. If people were taught that rather than parallel parking, we'd all be fine"

What a terrible fallacy.

People with fast cars indeed could better avoid accidents.
But the problem is, people with fast cars are much more likely to cause accidents because driver mistakes are accentuated in powerful cars.

Lift off the gas midcorner in a prius, and behold the understeer.
Lift off midcorner in my M3 or my 911, and enjoy sliding off the road.

The solution to the problem, lies in good parenting, stricter licensing, and more reasonable enforcement. When you get a ticket, you are told to go to traffic school. Do you think traffic school will make you a safe driver? of course not, they simply re-iterate what's on road signs all over the country. Now if they sent you to a car control clinic, chances are you'de leave the clinic with a much better understanding of how to drive and control your car in everyday and emergency situations. Which is more desirable? Our law enformcement with respect to road laws is simply not geared towards safety enough. And our licensing is embarassingly unregulated. We give licenses to anyone. The CA license test does not include freeway drivin. You could have never even so much as seen a freeway in your life and get a license here in calrifornia. Does that seem right? Our license tests are about how well you can come to a complete stop at a stopsign and wether or not you know how early you should put on your turn signal. Don't you think people should be required to know how to avoid accidents? Don't you think insurance companies should promote safety and their own best interest by entising people to attend car control clinics? We have a fatally flawed system in many, many ways, which makes it very deadly, but leaves it with a lot of potential for betterment.

 

We agree, just a misunderstanding. I meant that people should understand all the aspects of driving a car, and would behave much more responsibly if they did (stricter licensing etc). Fast cars are dangerous in the wrong hands, of course. But in the right hands, they're safer than the rest. If what I said makes more sense.

BTW, if you lift off in you 911. Wether it's an old one, and you do crash, or it's a new one, and you shouldn't disable the PSM until you can drive MOUHAHAHA

 

Simply put..You want a car with over 350hp..you need a speacial license. You want a car with over 500hp, agian you will need special license..Do it by horsepower class. The more power you want..the more stringent the guidelines are for you to get the proper license.

If you do somthing stupid in a car with that amount of power and speed capabilities..you lose BOTH your driving permits for 6 months. If your caught again..1 year...if you do it again..no more license..in otherwords..strike three your out..Driving is not a right..it is a conveniance that we enjoy.

 

I certainly agree that stupid drivers are the problem........... not powerful vehicles.

Something needs to be done that makes licensing more stringent. If anyone has ever stood in the never ending line to renew their license, and seen the DMV employee "helping" the person through the vision test............. you know what I mean. Graduated licenses for beginning drivers is a start. Graduated licenses for drivers of more powerful cars would also be good. However, with the pain, there needs to be gain............. so those who achieve these "achievement" licenses should have additional privledges, such as increased limits (make some way to identify that they have the right to drive that fast, so they don't get pulled over all the time). Also, testing needs to start again at a certain age. While this will certainly piss off alot of elderly drivers, it will also save their lives............. and the lives of others.

The true fact is that most accidents happen by young, inexperienced drivers. Also, elderly drivers cause more accidents than any other group (as in you swerve to avoid running them over, and get in an accident yourself).

The biggest problem is that you cannot legislate common sense.......... no matter how the government tries. Until then, the dumbing down of the populace gets helped along by cars that try to fix every stupid thing that someone does............ and allows them to think even less when they hit the roads. A perfect example of this is the fact that new Honda cars have had their front bumpers and hoods redesigned so that WHEN you hit a pedestrian, they will not be injured as badly. EXCUSE ME !!!! WHEN you hit a pedestrian???? What the hell is the world coming to.

PS, I have been saved from accidents by driving a capable vehicle more times than I can count. Of course, it probably helps that I have a brain........... and actually use it when I am driving.