Is Red Bull cheating?

We could say that they´re cheating better than the others.

 

.5 of a second X 60 laps = 30 seconds.

I don't want to believe it anymore than you do, but are they out right cheating? I don't think so.
Is Newey better than others at designing a car that takes advantage of ambiguity in some rules? I think that's a better question....

 

Are they cheating?


Is it racing?

 

Sounds about right. Unless there is a direct rules violation, you can't say they're "cheating".

Clearly, though, they've figured out something that none of the other teams can come to grips with. (no pun intended)

 

Correctamundo!

 

It ain't cheating if you don't get caught.

 

Mostly the driver. And I don't mean it like it sounds . Remember on this artificial racing it's all about TIRE PRESERVATION. And yes, Vettel is a master of keeping the tires at their limit without overdriving them, BUT what helps him the most is DRIVING IN CLEAN AIR. The guy gets in front, builds enough lead (that's where it helps to be the fastest driver in a great car you have helped develop), and just controls the race from there lapping quicker than the others (again, clean air), while degrading his tires less. Other top teams/drivers could lap quicker if they wanted to, but would ruin their tires in no time, so they don't (that's why I called it 'artificial racing'). Plus RB usually plays the right strategy as well. In other words, is a combination of many things. And RB seems to have an advantage on all of them at the moment. But things will change sooner or later. Hopefully sooner .

 

+1

Super car plus super driver.

Anybody doubting IVETTEL needs to explain why Webber isn't constantly in Seb's mirrors.

 

And really, that's what F1 is all about. At least on the design and engineering level. Here are the boundaries, build the best car you can that fits within these parameters. Every little tweak, wrinkle, and ripple that will add a hundredth of a second or so adds up. And so long as none of them cross the boundaries, good on them. The team has done their job.

Remember things like the blown exhaust and the double diffuser weren't breaking any rules when they were designed. They were ingenious innovations until The FIA wrote a rule to ban them.

I have no idea what RBR / Newey has come up with this time, if anything. Maybe it really is all down to a brilliant designer paired with a, let's admit it, brilliant driver.

But if they have come up with a new wrinkle, good on them.

 

If they were cheating they would have been protested. If they had one demon tweak it would have been banned. They've built a fast car within the rules. They have a great organization and a top notch driver.

 

No one can stay 'vettel must be great cos he smokes webber' as though webber is a great driver. I like mark webber, but all through his career, people have been saying what a talent he is, he will be a star, a champion etc, but IMO he has never proven to have the extra factor that an Alonso, Hamilton etc has had, so just because vettel beats him, it doesn't make vettel great.

Vettel has a great car, sure, and he is the best red bull driver, obviously, but vettel hasn't had to drag a dog of a car around and outperform it like Alonso, schumi or other actual proven greats.

Hopefully next year the playing field might level out, and we will get to see whether he really has it. I am not sure he's much better than many other drivers given the same equipment

 

My God, man.....4 x WDC!!! In a row!!!

 

Well, now seriusly: they sometimes cheated (somewhat).

I mean, last year they introduced a new diffuser that many teams protested, it was in a gray area of the rules but Charlie gave the OK. At that time Red Bull was loosing ground to McLaren and it´s not hard to imagine that if was a McLaren idea that diffuser would be banned.

And then there is the issue of the flexible wings: supposedly those are against "the spirit of the rules" but FIA is not doing any serious effort to enforce the rule, they just say "oh, it passed the test". Change the test, man! You have done it mid-season lots of times!

When they finally decided to ban the EBD, Red Bull´s greatest weapon, they made crappy rules that still allowed to use the exhaust and the engine to blow. The Renault engine is also allowed to blow hot gasses "because of reliability problems" (quite convenient reliability problems I may say). WTF! If the engine blows it´s their problem; that or allow everybody to race in the same conditions.

Also, for some "strange" reason, the tyre suppliers always brought to the last races of the season the harder compounds because "they didn´t want to affect the outcome of the Championship" but doing so that´s exactly what they were doing because those tyres fitted he Red Bull better. Let´s also not forget all the drama with the the 2013 tyres. Before they began to explode they already were making changes to suit Red Bull a bit more (probably FIA was trying to help Mercedes more than Red Bull).

So: I´m not going to say that Red Bull is cheating but for some reason I have the feeling that FIA tends to give them more leeway than to other dominant teams in the past so keeping that dominance is easier for them.

 

That's what many people said when Ferrari was dominant.

I don't buy it....but that's just me.

 

True, but I have the feeling that the BS has increased in F1 in the last 6-7 years.

During the reign of terror of Schumacher I dont recall so many "gray areas". Although I guess that the rules were simpler too. Also we didn`t have all the BS we have now with the tyres.

 

Monza 2008

Smoked the entire field on a STR. In qualifying and the race.

In that case, let me refresh your memory:
- electronic driving aids (traction control, brake assist, stability control, launch control)
- aeros (barge boards, winglets on the side pods, the triple X wing)
- team rules (Zeltweg, Indianapolis)
- innovation (mass damper)

Nothing has changed. The best team figured out how to play the game the best and also happens to have one of the best drivers. Recipe for success during the McLaren Senna/Prost years, same story for Ferrari/Schumacher and now for RB/IVETTEL

 

Webber hasn't driven well since the RB6. He's consistently been a terrible starter and terrible qualifier. This previous weekend was a perfect example of that. Terrible start, got backed up in the field behind slower cars, Vettel shot out front to the car's capabilities and by the time Webber was in clear air his lap times were identical to Vettel's.

If Red Bull were so confident in Vettel they would have signed Kimi. They need a solid driver pairing with experience at the sharp end of the grid to go up against Ferrari and MB who have the strongest driver pairings on the field. They don't want to tarnish Vettel an ounce with an actual proficient teammate. End of story.

 

Ugh not this Monza nonsense again. It wasn't Spain or Monaco in the rain, it was Monza where practically anything can happen anyway. Qualifying is always the tightest of the year at Monza and the STR that year always had massive top speed, of course it was going to do well there.

 

Well, for one, Webber has been phoning it in for awhile now and he was never that good to begin with. A Heidfeld-esque talent. Out of curiousity, do you think Seb is the best driver on the grid? I still think it's Alonso, but would like to hear your thoughts.

 

I can't wait till next year does away with exhaust blowing. It's the main reason RB is so successful.

 

Sounds about right.

 

Your right "not this non sense again". I've posted this before but here is a refresher for those with short memories.


At 19 he showed pace in a BMW comparable to their actual drivers. Then went to TORO Rosso and was in third (in the rain, in his rookie season) before crashing into webber. He followed this with a 4th in china giving the team their best result ever(at the time), and coming close to bringing them two consecutive podiums.

2008 TR had their best WCC season to date(6th only have 8th since) at the hands of SV despite a terrible Bourdais only contributing 4 of the 39 points. They have done nothing prior or after SV's full one year stint at TR and remains their only winner. SV put the junior Red Bull team AHEAD of the senior RB team in the team standings without a Newey car. And clearly bested both the senior drivers in drivers points who had a Newey car.

2009 he joins RBR which had done nothing EVEN with newey at the helm since 2007 (5th the best result with 7th in 2008). 2009 Vettels first year with RB they hit second in the WCC with Vettel out scoring and capturing more wins vs Webber(2nd vs. 5th in WDC) and giving RBR their first win EVER(after Red bulls junior team remember).

2010 a team that was 7th prior to Vettel's arrival becomes WCC and WDC.

Newey had results prior to Seb and Seb even at under 21 clearly was elevating teams that he was racing for and had the results to prove it. Combined they have shown that they can develop a car that fits him perfectly and is about to take 4 consecutive WCC and WDC's. This takes more than just Newey but Seb being able to communicate what he needs/wants from the car and then going out on race day and getting it done.

 

Great post, I am not doubting his ability as a great driver, but I have yet to believe he is of Senna/Schumacher brilliance, that's all. Webber drove every bit as good and better actually for most of the year than Vettel in 2010 with RB6, Webber hasn't been the same since that year. Terrible actually, we all watch each and every one of his starts.

Why, if Red Bull are so confident in Vettel and his ability, and with 2014 being such an important year moving forward, would they hire a driver who has zero experience at sharp end of the grid? Driving at the front is very different than driving at the back or in the middle. Why not hire Kimi who can really move out there at the front? It makes no sense if Red Bull are trying to fight for the championship against other extremely competitive driver pairings in a shake-up year where everyone will be chomping to get the title? What are they hiding? Would it make them absolutely crazy to see Vettel get beaten every once in a while? The answer is obviously yes

 

Red Bull simply stumbled upon a recipe that just happened to be a success right out of the box and needed minimum tweaking from season to season and they deserve Kudos for this/their accomplishment.