is the bubble due to burst? | Page 134 | FerrariChat

is the bubble due to burst?

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by PFSEX, Jan 18, 2013.

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  1. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

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    It’s always a buyers market with a 612.
     
  2. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    The 612 is a bit of an outlier in the 2+2 world, as they never have gotten as cheap relative to their original price as previous 2+2's like the 456 and 456M did. The reason they've held their value better is at least partly the result of the FF and Lusso being perceived by most as ugly. If you like traditional fastback 2+2's, like I do, the FF/Lusso is not attractive, no matter how awesome it is as a car. What I'm hoping for is a new 2+2 in a more traditional configuration after the Lusso. There have already been hints that this will happen, as the Lusso evolves into the FUV, leaving room for a V12 2+2. IF that happens, then the 612 will probably come down some more, and you may not be able to give FF's and Lusso's away.

    I've loved and followed 2+2 Ferraris since the 365 GTC/4 2+2 of the 70's, so I wonk out on this stuff. They are always the most Ferrari for the money when they hit max depreciation.
     
  3. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Frankly, I've never understood why Ferrari builds 2 + 2s. When you sell everything you make, why not build the highest margin product you can, i.e., supercars?
     
  4. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't know either, but I'm glad they do! I first noticed the phenomenon back in the 70's when Ferrari was selling the 365 GTB/4 Daytona alongside the 365 GTC/4 2+2. I actually preferred the look of the 2+2! And on the used market, the 2+2's got cheap as dirt fast. Of course, they were $400K cars not so long ago, but they have fallen off their highs a bit. There's a red one at FoSA, but they bought it at its peak, so they can't afford to sell it right now. The entire vintage market seems to be off. We may be going through a correction.

    A lot of the 365 GTC/4 went into the 550 when Ferrari last went through a retro-modern phase. So beautiful.
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  5. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    I've always liked the "clown lipped" car. All you need to do is paint the front bumper.
     
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  6. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Paint formulated to bend with plastic bodywork - i.e. motorcycle paint - would work perfectly for that.
     
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  7. damian in nj

    damian in nj Formula Junior
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    Or buy a black car that the bumper blends in with quite nicely.
     
  8. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    It really never bothered me, but a one color treatment in red would be cool. Of course, you'd have to fabricate a copy to save the original, and I bet somebody did that already.
     
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  9. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    And wouldn't you know it, there is already a treatment for the front that eliminates the bumper altogether. Very clean and tidy.
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  10. neil e dale

    neil e dale Formula Junior
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    people always pay crazy prices at auctions ! frequently more than a car can be bought elsewhere for
     
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  11. SCantera

    SCantera F1 Veteran
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    Enzo realized that he had to sell "production cars" to fund his racing. The 250 GT 2+2 introduced in 1960 was probably the first car to be considered a production model. Before and at the beginning of that decade the other road cars were built in smaller numbers.

    With the sales success of the 250 2+2 Ferrari set a strategy and established the "normal" model production car line up......a Berlinetta, a Coupe, a Spider and a 2+2. In the 60s there were three 2+2 models....250, 330 and 365. Combined production of these totaled 2757. In comparison all the other normal production cars....250 GT/L, 275 GTB, 275 GTS, 330 GTC and GTC, 275 GTB/4 and 365 GTC and GTS combined for 2130 over the same decade. Basically the 2+2s were the breadwinners for Enzo during the 60s.

    I have no definitive answer for why Ferrari continues to build the 2+2s other than continuing the model line-up that Enzo established in the 60s. Unlike that decade the appeal and sales of the 4 seat Ferrari has significantly dropped as a percentage of cars produced. History is the only thought that I have.
     
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  12. SCantera

    SCantera F1 Veteran
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    I may be mistaken but I don't think Ferrari ever put the "2+2" tag on the 365 GTC/4 model. Unlike the 250, 330, and 365 GT 2+2 models the "C/4" has a very marginal back seat. Good for kids under 6 years it really is impractical to consider it as a 4 seat car. The 365 GT 2+2 [nicknamed the Queen Mother] was produced for three + years ending in early 1971. It wasn't until the 365 GT/4 2+2 was introduced in 72 did the 2+2 go back into production.

    Accordingly following the normal production offerings of a Berlinetta [Daytona], a Coupe [C/4], a Spider [Daytona Spider] a 2+2 [365 GT/4 2+2]. The C/4 was not intended to be a 2+2.

    I have cared for 2 different C/4s over past decades. I don't much like the "Ubangi lips" front bumper either. But if you get a dark color [blue or black] the bumper blends and is less objectionable then say red paint black bumper. The C/4 engine has one of the best sounds of any Ferrari I have ever driven. It has a fantastic "howl" at 5000 RPM in 3rd gear....especially in a tunnel!! I think the C/4 is a reasonable value in the market place compared to the Daytona and other vintage options. I highly recommend you pick one up :D.
     
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  13. Bradwilliams

    Bradwilliams F1 Veteran
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    And I have no idea why on gods green earth they want to produce an SUV? But hey thats what happens when you go for an ipo. Shareholders want profits at all costs. Regardless of the long term damage it can cause a company.
     
  14. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I never said they did. They didn't officially call the 365 GTB/4 the Daytona either. I just use the convention to make it more obvious which of the two I'm talking about.
     
  15. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    That wasn't Porsche's experience.
     
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  16. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    Yes I'm always amazed at the people that invest in individual stocks and brag about some gains but never talk about their terrible losses. Index fund investing is the closest I get to that and I have a background in economics before doing a career change.
     
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  17. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Funny, but true. Of course, you know why so many people invest in stocks is due to something called stockbrokers, or ah, financial consultants, or life coaches... Things are sold not brought.


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  18. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    People like that are my friends when they have a fiduciary responsibility for managing my trust. I'm a musician. I know **** all about financial instruments. And I have less than zero curiosity about learning the details of them. But, I ended up with significant resources, and I had the brains to listen to those in the know who were successful, and so I have everything set up so I have almost no worries at all. That's what retirement is supposed to be like.
     
  19. Bradwilliams

    Bradwilliams F1 Veteran
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    Porsche and Ferrari are two different beasts. Although they may look similar on the surface.
     
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  20. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    The main problem Ferrari will have with an SUV is dealing with customers who expect everything to be like a Lexus. You know, actually work and all that.


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  21. davidoloan

    davidoloan Formula Junior

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  22. davidoloan

    davidoloan Formula Junior

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    #3347 davidoloan, Sep 6, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
    Though it was a private company.

    From VW's wiki page is a good summary :

    Under the Volkswagen Law, no shareholder in Volkswagen AG could exercise more than 20 percent of the firm's voting rights, regardless of their level of stock holding.[75] This law was supposed to protect Volkswagen Group from takeovers.[76] In October 2005, Porscheacquired an 18.53 percent stake in the business, and in July 2006, Porsche increased that ownership to more than 25 percent. Analysts disagreed as to whether the investment was a good fit for Porsche's strategy.[77]

    On 26 March 2007, after the European Union moved against the Volkswagen law, Porsche took its holding to 30.9 percent, triggering a takeover bid under German law. Porsche formally announced in a press statement that it did not intend to take over Volkswagen Group, setting its offer price at the lowest possible legal value, but intended the move to avoid a competitor taking a large stake, or to stop hedge funds dismantling Volkswagen Group, which is Porsche's most important partner.[78] On 16 September 2008, Porsche announced that the company had increased its stake in Volkswagen AG to 35 percent.[citation needed] By October 2008, Porsche held 42.6 percent of Volkswagen AG's ordinary shares, and held stock options on another 31.5 percent.[79] thus, effectively holding over 74 percent; 42.6 percent actual shares, and the rest as convertible options.[80] Volkswagen AG briefly became the world's most valuable company, as the stock price rose to over €1,000 per share as short sellers tried to cover their positions[81] The substantial investment in Volkswagen left Porsche with huge financial burden with its debts accumulating up to 13 billion euros by 2009.[82] Porsche would get emergency infusion of about a billion dollars from Volkswagen.[83] In July 2012, Volkswagen completed takeover of Porsche ending the 4 year saga and formed an integrated automotive group with Porsche. Porsche AG would become the 10th brand of Volkswagen. The holding company Porsche SE owns 31 percent shares of Volkswagen AG while maintaining its 50.7 percent of voting rights in the company.[84]
     
  23. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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  24. davidoloan

    davidoloan Formula Junior

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    #3349 davidoloan, Sep 6, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
    No, I agree, but it wasn't a company focused on making great cars and the disaster followed on. Of course things could have turned out in Porsche AG's favour but they didn't.

    To complicate matters Piëch is a Porsche, and ran VW, and along with his family Piëch & Porsche, owns Porsche SE of which VW is a subsidiary.
     
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  25. Bradwilliams

    Bradwilliams F1 Veteran
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    Piech also created a halo effect around vw with the toureg and phaeton though. And it worked.
     
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