is the bubble due to burst?

Ok Steve, let's try this again. ALL SWB cars up to about #3000 have the SAME gearbox. There is NO SUCH THING as a Comp Gearbox. As to engines on old Ferraris, the Build Sheets are generally pretty accurate, but not always. However, the parts inside an engine in 2024 are not necessarily the same spec parts that were in the engine when the car was built. RM may have been being careful as to exactly what they claimed in the catalog description.

 

@DWR46 Dyke, May I ask you this question?: Do any Alloy bodied COMPETIZIONE 250 GT SWBs with Competizione engines (Tipo 130 Cams/10 mm Lift, 40/46 Webers etc) come with the non ribbed, cast iron cased SWB gearbox?

 

Steve: I did some quick research (just for you). I certainly do not have Build Sheets for all the SWB Berlinetta's and California's, however I have enough to make some pretty good conclusions.

1. The last SWB Berlinetta with a alloy cased, ribbed gearbox (case part #539/55485) was 3005, which happens to be one of the last, if not the last, competition SWB Berlinetta. ALL previous SWB Berlinetta's prior to this car used the alloy gearbox.

2. The cast iron case (#508E/55719) gearbox first appears about #2871 in California's and #3035 in Berlinetta's.

 

Agreed. With the Tipo 130 cams it is a Competition motor and without them it is not.

I believe the semi-competition engines do exist and these are the ones that do have the Tipo 130 cams with 10 mm lift, 40 barrel Webers, velocity stacks and cold air boxes BUT the difference being the "semi-competition" engines have standard inlet/exhaust valves/ports and not the 128LM spec valves as well as no electron magnesium engine casings that some of the raciest SWBs have.

None of the Comp SWBs used the cast iron non ribbed gearbox and always used the alloy ribbed gearbox, which is why they are referred to as the Competition gearbox in a number of books, even if some of the steel/street (non GT/L Lusso) SWBs used this same gearbox as I believe these earlier steel SWBs had more of a competition bias with semi-competition engines and many other competition features than some of the later steel/street (non GT/L Lusso) 250 GT SWBs which have a more street and a lesser comp bias. A few, for the reasons stated, of the earlier steel SWBs, way before chassis #3000, did use the non ribbed iron gearbox as stated in Jess Pourret's 250 GT Competition book, a book which although old is admirably thorough and very well researched. There is even an early SWB engine with a horizontal oil filter pictured with the iron non ribbed gearbox in this book. Later SWB engines used upright oil filters as you well know.

Thank you, Dyke. As all 250 GT SWBs have such varying specifications I think we'd need to check each and every build sheet to make a definitive statement.

#3067 is a Street Alloy bodied Lusso 250 GT SWB that is said to have an aluminium gearbox. #3327 is a '61/Comp spec SEFAC Hot Rod so will have the aluminium ribbed gearbox.

See above.

 

Steve: #3327 WAS BUILT with a cast iron case (508E/55719) gearbox, so there goes that part of your theory.

 

May I ask what proof there is of this, Dyke?

 

Steve: I have copies of the factory Build Sheets. Again, just for you, my assistant and I are researching all the SWB Berlinetta's in our Build Sheet file and we are compiling the significant engine performance components into a spreadsheet to then compare as too how the cars were built. I believe i will then be able to make some pretty accurate statements as to what engine combinations were used in these cars and shoot holes in some old beliefs. It is a complex task, but we will have results in a few days. You will be amazed at the number of variances found in the cars.

 

Excellent, Dyke. Thank you. Do the 3327 Build Sheets indicate that it is a steel bodied car, normal competition car or Comp./61 SEFAC Hot Rod?

 

Steve: Build sheets do not usually indicate the bodywork material in SWB cars. 3327 was built with a 168/61 Comp (Hot Rod) engine.

 

@Marcel Massini has also stated that 3327 is a SEFAC Hot Rod, the last of the 20. See his post here.

I can't see Ferrari making a stripped out Lightweight SWB Hot Rod racer with a cast iron gearbox, can you? Perhaps a mistake on the Build Sheets re the 508E/55719 gearbox part numbers?

 

It could be a mistake on the Build Sheets, but in this case, I doubt it. When the factory switched from one component to another, they used up the old stock and then installed the new pieces. Steve, you seem to be making an "beginners" mistake here (and that surprises me as you have a vast amount of experience with Ferrari). In this case, you seem to be making the assumption the "all" of a certain model (comp SWB, Hot Rod SWB) are the same, and that is just not true. The factory, during this era, produced a bewildering variety of versions of each distinct model. The mechanical variances in just SWB Berlinetta's is astounding.

 

Ferrari made around another 36 250 GT SWBs after 3327, and these were the steel Lusso versions, so they were not running out of orders for cars that Ferrari could have put any left over cast iron gearboxes in.

Perhaps you missed what I said above in my post #4179.

 

Germane to the title of this thread/

 

As it is reliably stated that 3327 was the ultimate (last) built SEFAC Hot Rod 250 GT SWB I just can't get my head around it having a cast iron gearbox. I've read that the order by John Baxter, the original owner, through Chinetti was specific, for the lightest and highest performing Berlinetta. 3327 was the last competition Berlinetta built before the introduction of the GTO. These SEFAC Hot Rod were real lightened and highly tuned weapons built to win. They were real racing cars and to quite a similarish spec and high tune as the GTO and would be different to a steel Lusso SWB. Actually the SEFAC Hot Rods were in a higher, less flexible state of tune than a GTO, with most of the power after 5500 revs. The GTO was more forgiving/flexible at lower revs. Can you see a GTO having a heavier cast iron gearbox rather than a light ribbed aluminium gearbox with an oil pump too for more efficient lubrication under competition conditions? (The cast iron box may have had the oil pump too but not sure about this). I have no proof of course of any of this and is only a gut feeling and I could be completely wrong.


3327 has also been Classiche certified. Perhaps somebody has a copy of the book where the spec may be seen and the gearbox pictured?

 

Steve: In reference to your post in 4187, I think you are backwards, the alloy cased gearbox was replaced by the cast iron cased gearbox. So any "leftover" gearboxes would have been alloy cased units. Generally, when the factory replaced a major component with a later design, they did not keep a supply of the old pieces. The used the last of the old design, and then started putting the new parts in the cars. In any case, I should be able to add a lot of knowledge about these cars when my research project is completed. I will post my results in a new thread in a more appropriate section of the forum.

 

I knew you'd think that before I posted in #4187, but it's only true if the non ribbed cast iron case was introduced as a replacement for the ribbed aluminium case after the chassis numbers you state, but according to Pourret it was not and the iron cased gearbox for the steel Lusso SWBs ran alongside ribbed aluminium cased gearbox for the Competition SWBs.

Please see pics below from page 92 of Pourret's 250 GT Competition book showing the early first type SWB Lusso engine Tipo 168B (1960) with horizontal oil filter proving it is an early SWB engine with the cast iron non (or less) ribbed gearbox.

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Looking forward to seeing the results of your always excellent research, Dyke.

 

I have a headache.

 

Steve: Jess's book was a great effort limited by the information he had available at the time. The photos you reference are "publicity" photos and not necessarily indicative of how the cars were actually built.

 

Is there a 250 GT SWB gearbox thread that this discussion can be moved to?
Love the model, but what does the different gear boxes have to do with classic car market stability?

 

Dennis: the discussion has moved to a specific thread about engine configurations.

 

I never heard of Ferrari using Magnesium Blocks. I only know about Cluth Housing, Oil Sump and Front Engine Casing.

 

I did not say blocks. I meant camshaft covers and the parts as you quote.

 

OK!

Engine Casing for me is the same, as Engine Block. But, as English is not my first language....

So, my bad!

 

same to me

 

I said engine casings in the plural, meaning in this particular context that the raciest SWBs such as the SEFAC Hot Rods had electron magnesium oil sumps, timing chain covers and cam covers. However you translate it into or from any language, these are all engine parts and they are all casings.