Is the F12 a bargain?

I hear ya but I am still young and had my fun without a ferrari or Lambo so maybe my view is a little skewed. LOL

BTW I did not know you had an 8C. To me that is the one of the most beautifull cars producd in the last 25 years and maybe ever. What color do you have exterior and interior? Also is it a coupe or spider? I prefer the look of the coupe and drove twice to the ferrari dealership in Edison to see it. Also best of luck next month at the ring Jim.

 

Hey I drove a VW Bug when I met my Wife 40 years ago so that one worked for me.

I have a coupe US serial #1 which they kindly painted P 4/5 Red for me. Red interior.

Thanks

 

Details, details - love it

 

Picture of the 8C Jim?

 

Here's a utube someone shot and posted when I left it parked one day. Go figure...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWI_95ObMj0[/ame]

 

We have one. I love the design, but the handling over the bumpy roads is not fun. It's actually the first car i drove that feels bigger than it is.

 

Ah but it is true automotive art. Simply gorgeous.

 

Herein lies the problem with automotive journalism, their point of reference as well as perceived objectivity, though it can be argued its pretty tough to be objective when you are out in the Italian sunshine throwing a 730 bhp Ferrari around.

Thus, to me the more relevent reviews are usually written by owners.

Granted the F12 does sound like a superb car.

 

Andrew you're way too old for a tight car.

 

But they are my favorite

 

Hope 2 C U soon.

 

'What car these journalists drive on a daily basis' is most every new product launched by the car companies each year. Some have been travelling the world for decades writing about new cars and they are typically among the first 'outsider' to drive a new product. First hand experience with a wide variety of products from different car manufacturers gives them a unique perspective on the marketplace. They may not park them in their own garage but they certainly get lots of 'seat time' all the same.
CH

 

That's great to hear. The 8C is a wonderful car.

Yes...thank you! The 599 has seen close to 40K miles in the last three years and she is certainly being enjoyed. Trying to emulate what you did with your TR in my own small way

 

I personally really like the F12's styling and think it's a beautiful car. However calling it a performance bargain I think is stretching it a little too far.

There are a few cars that sell for much less money that can either outperform or come close to the F12's performance. Off-hand I can think of 3 - GTR, Viper and ZR1.

Add to this the fact that you can sneeze at these cars and be making 800+HP via simple aftermarket upgrades and you have real performance value. The F12 is likely to be much more expensive to upgrade and get more power out of.

Which would I rather have? The F12 (or an Aventador if you please). But if it's outright performance you're after, there are other better/less expensive alternatives.

 

I don't see any of those cars equalling the f12 in performance. The GTR can go faster to 60 due solely to it's AWD, but I don't think there's any way it beats them on a road course. It has close to 200 less HP and weighs 500 more lbs. The only time I see for the GTR on the ring puts it 2 seconds faster than the Enzo, which lost more than that due to it's front bumper being so low, so no way it beats a car that's significantly faster than the Enzo and doesn't have the same clearance issue. The Viper and ZR1 are both the same 33xxlbs as the f12 but have 90-100 less HP, that's not a small amount imo.

That being said, the f12 isn't a bargain or anything close to it; no Ferrari ever made is or was, at any point in time, a bargain. The f12 should be faster (on a track) than any other factory stock new car in it's price range or below, though. It may also be faster than some much more expensive cars, but we'll see.

 

I don't think I have ever heard any reviewer call the GTR anything short of amazing. Not just in straight line performance but also in cornering.

One thing you are forgetting when comparing power figures is torque and more specifically, area under the curve. The Viper and ZR1 have TONS of it. It may not win a bench race, but it sure makes a difference on the track.

The other point I was trying to make is that for very little money and not much work, you can add another 200+ HP to these cars. There are dozens of 800+ HP GTR's and quite a few 750+ HP ZR1's driving around here in Texas. I can't tell you how many 1000+ HP Vipers there are.

The point is, for outright performance there are much cheaper ways to go than an F12.

 

A Viper ACR will kill it at the Ring. Do you seriously think an F12 is going to beat a 7:12 on the NS?

 

Me too! You should come to the FCA in Palm Springs!

 

They don't make an ACR anymore, do they? We'll see if/when they release a new version of the ACR. The Enzo ran 7:25 on lesser tires (the ACR time was set on pilot sport cups) with it's front end height issue. Without that issue it would have been, I think you said, 5 seconds quicker? Lets call it 3, so a 7:22. The f12 is 2 seconds faster around fiorano, which is about 1/6th the length of the ring, so if that translates directly, it'd be 12 seconds faster around the ring. That's a 7:10, but too many ifs there to know for sure until it runs. I'd say the potential to beat the 7:12 time of the ACR is there, but it will depend a lot on the driver and day they run on. I also don't think they offer the f12 with sport cups so that's a lot of time it loses right there and an official ring time is only done on oem tires.

To your point, though, the ACR isn't available anymore and I was comparing it to new cars available now (or near future like the new viper). What does an lfa go for? That and it's 7:14 time might be a more apt comparison and it's faster than the zr1 or gtr at the ring.

 

As an aside Losing seconds at the Ring very expensive. If we race next year and we'll only race if they give us a real chance to run at the top we'll have to lose 12 seconds on the GP+NS. Losing that 12 seconds will cost almost 1MM USD excluding the cost to race. Just development of engines,gearboxes,tires, KERS, and testing. If the F12 runs anywhere near 7:12 I'll be VERY impressed. If any of these three hypercars runs under 7:12 I'll be REALLY impressed (In street legal trim) If we are able to lose 12 seconds we'll be running the NS under 6:45...

 

The rarified air of Ring records is not where I would expect to find a F12.

That would matter little to me. As I know what Napolis says is true. Those seconds cost $$$ and they are untouchable for me and of little consequence.

When my number comes up, I'll probably view it as a bargain. Relatively speaking.

The GTR is too. I also think a sultan may think of a $1M car as a bargain.



Yes. It's a bargain.


I hope they didn't hear me.

 

Aventador ran a 7.25. F12 slightly lighter and has 40 more hp. You expect it to run 12 sec faster? I dont see it happening. I will impressed if it runs 7.22 even. Lets see.

 

Expect? I never said that. Possible, yes. The F12 is 2 seconds faster than the Enzo at Fiorano. NS is much longer, 5-6x longer. The Enzo ran 7:25 at the ring with nose height issues. Those are all facts. The rest is conjecture, I suspect with the super sports it'll do a 7:19. I'm not sure what the oem tires are but I suspect they're the super sports, which are nowhere near the tire the ACR, LFA, ZR1 etc. ran for their times (pilot sport cups). Those tires are worth 7-10 seconds alone. The ACR picked up 7 seconds with the sport cup tires when they 'retook' the production car crown from the LFA and that was the only change mentioned vs. their 7:19 time. IMO, too many variables to estimate what the f12 will run with any degree of confidence (tires, driver, weather etc), but I think it has the potential to run in the 7:15 range if run with a ring expert, sport cup tires on a good day. They could always release a 'ring package like the LFA that basically consists of DOT r-comp tires and nothing else and pass all of the above cars at this point if the ring record were the goal, but I honestly don't think Ferrari will run the car there so we'll probably have to wait a year or two to find out.

 

LFA NB edition runs on same tires Honda S2000 came out with..not 'cup' tires. Which makes its time even more impressive. If F12 runs 7:20, that would be respectable.

 

You're right, it was on RE070's, that makes it even more impressive and a full 5 seconds clear of the Viper ACR before they put the sport cup tires on it. That 7:14, imo, is the mark that the f12 needs to shoot for as they're in the same price class, and that's a very tall order.