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Is the Falluja situation the start of the 'real Iraq war'?

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by PeterS, Apr 6, 2004.

  1. PeterS

    PeterS Three Time F1 World Champ
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    First off, I am for fighting the global terrorist threat, a huge military and taking care of people like Sadam. I have grave concern of our current actions in Falluja. Yes, the group that killed the four people need to be punished. Are we going about this the right way? From north to south, people in Iraq are getting a bit pissed off at the US occupation. Are we doing the 'right thing' there? Is this the start of a greater loss of life than we have seen to date?
     
  2. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

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    Religious fundamentalism (of any sort) cannot, will not and must not be appeased by rational means; religious fervor and zealotry of this depth are akin to the fanatical Nationalism that fueled Hilter and the 3rd Reich. (Anyone care to ask Chamberlain where appeasment got him?) It's obvious that as long as the western world exists, there will exist hatred for it. Some ask whether or not we should have gone into Iraq, and whether all we've done is created another condesation of hatred on the global landscape? Maybe we shouldn't have; however, the time for that debate is up b/c it's a moot point. We're there, it's a giant mess, and whether we stay or leave won't make a bit of difference; therefore, since the resolve of this administration is that the invation was neccessary (and b/c the resolve of many Corporations is to invest in Iraq) the issue at hand is wiping the slate clean of these fundamentalists. America has gone against the U.N. and most of the world with the invasion of Iraq, now it has to carry through and do a clean sweep -- otherwise, it's all for naught.
     
  3. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

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    From what I understand there are at least 3 major 'clans' in Iraq, Kurds seem to semi-like us. They all hate each other, but they all hate us (and Christians in general) more.

    They will unite to fight us; when we're gone they will go back to killing each other. Think Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

    Its going to be a long haul getting peace in Iraq anytime soon. The only thing that keeps nations with strongly divided internal groups in line is a strong, fierce dictatorship, that oppresses everyone seperatly but equally. Freedom in these countries means the freedom to kill rival clans/tribes.

    I'm also all for fighting terrorists, which has nothing to do with invading Iraq; this war is taking valuable resources away from the war on terror.
     
  4. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    20 dead in 2 days, 18 dead over the weekend. Some flowers in the streets when we "liberated" them. We need to get out, let them sort out their own governing issues. Those people here, who lied to us, to start this, should be ejected from office, hearings held, and if they did this dilberately, tried for whatever crimes them committed. At this rate, we'll have over 2000 dead American Boys by the end of the year. That's the crime. There's already 30k dead Iraqis, and that's a bigger crime.

    Iraq was never a terrorist threat to the US, nor any other type of threat.

    Art
     
  5. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Art: I knew you would show up. LOL

    Happy Passover !!!!
     
  6. HMS

    HMS Formula 3

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    All this talk of "getting out" is meaningless. We started a job and we will finish it. I rather we start handling these guys like Saddam did. These savages don't understand the meaning of the word nice. Brute force is all they can relate to after decades under Saddam.
     
  7. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    Why do this? So we can show the terrorists all over the world that we are indeed a "paper tiger" without the will to finish anything we started? That will surely open the floodgates to terror. I see Spain electing the socialist has really helped them. See the ad in the Barcelona paper yesterday from AlQuaeda?
     
  8. PeterS

    PeterS Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Art..I believe we need to finish the job QUICKLY and get the hell out of there. One correction in your statement though, our 'boys' are Men. When I was about 8 years old, I listened to Ira Blue on KGO. He always corrected people when they used the term 'boys' (in our military). I go with that statement. I believe that your '2000 dead american's ' guess may be true. That is extremely unfortunate. What a fricken mess we are in.
     
  9. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    Peter:

    Problem is we can't get rid of this quickly. Take a look at the West Bank. Their using the same tactics, and apparently have the same goal, get the invaders off their land. If we decide to get tough with them, we run the risk of alienating more of them, and thus adding recruits to the opposition. The Brits were run out of Iraq by the Baathists in the 50s, using essentially the same tactics.

    I heard the same sorts of statements: we can't just leave, we'll lose the entire Asian continent. Well, we didn't there, and we won't here. What will happen if we stay is more and more young Americans, men and women, who'll leave behind parents, spouses, and kids. As we did with the Vietnam viets, we'll promise their survivors a lot, deliver very little. Every person killed there will impact 5, 10 people here. Every person who sustained a major injury there (loss of a limb, etc) will impact 5, 10 people here. This is not a good deal, and it certainly wasn't something that whoever started this counted upon. Having said that, pouring good money (figuratively speaking) after bad isn't a great idea, and it should hold true here.

    Art
     
  10. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    Isn't the problem that, with Saddam gone, the islamists can surface? I don't know what brand of fundamentalism this Shiite cleric practices, but they obviously think we're invader/occupiers, not liberators--even though, during the time of Saddam, i'd bet most of these folks were laying pretty low.
    Now, what? Since turnover to the interim Iraqi gov't is not far away, they wouldn't have to wait too long to have at it. I suspect this is meant to gain political support from within. "Let's oust the infidel invader" probably makes this Sadr guy pretty popular. So, now he's holed up in a mosque in Najaf, a holy city where any attempt to extract him will be portrayed as an attack against the true believers.
    In retrospect, i think its clear that there was no "imminent threat" to justify our invasion, but i fully support the President and troops given where we are. I do think Bush will hold to the June timetable for transition, though, since there is no upside to our staying there as an occupier. Unfortunately, i have little hope that peace will reign once the indigenous peoples don't have us in the way.
     
  11. infraredline

    infraredline Formula 3

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    The Interim Iraqi government won't likely hold much power and the US says 110,000 troops will remain behind. Unfortunately, I don't see us being out of the way anytime soon.
     
  12. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    I would remind you that Christian Fundamentalists are at least as dangerous as Islamic ones.

    Translating into 3rd grade english: just because we were wrong to go in and depose their leader, we are now in a situation we have to wipe them out to prevent them from hating us? How very Christian.

    Perhaps if we listened to the 98% of the world we would not be is such a sorry position.
     
  13. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

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    I never said they weren't, nor did I imply it.



    I feel like your presuming something about my religious convictions here. You shouldn't indulge yourself in that regard.



    I agree.
     
  14. rcallahan

    rcallahan F1 Rookie
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    Guys,

    As I have said in numerous posts, we're doomed.

    On June 30 we are going to turn over the keys to Iraq to...we don't know yet. The iraqis think they will then run there own country. When reality sets in and the USA is still there telling them what to do and when to do it, all of the country will be up in arms. After 2-5,000 dead we will leave ala Vietnam (aboard helecopters from our new embassy). The Iraqis will then have a civil war and end up with 3 countrys. They will hate us for ten years, then want to do business with us and ask us back in. We will have wasted thousands of lives and billions of dollars. Back in the USA we will go through a period of the next 20 years distrusting anything our government says and does.

    God help us.

    Bob
     
  15. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
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    You just may end up being 100% correct!
     
  16. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    Man, this is a depressing thread.

    I hope you're wrong, I'm afriad you're not.

    I watched the Viet Nam war on TV as a teenager. It was awful, and was the defining event for millions of Americans then, as, I think Iraq will be now.
     
  17. PeterS

    PeterS Three Time F1 World Champ
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    " Having said that, pouring good money (figuratively speaking) after bad isn't a great idea, and it should hold true here".

    Art: Amen to that!
     
  18. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

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    RCCallahan: "Back in the USA we will go through a period of the next 20 years distrusting anything our government says and does."

    You must be too young to remember Watergate and the Viet Nam era in general. No right thinking person has trusted the Government since 1968.
     
  19. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

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    CNN Breaking New: Iraqi's just launched major offensive, 12 Marines dead so far 06-APR-04 3:48 MST.........
     
  20. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
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    It's worse:
    http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1130577,00.html

    130 SOLDIERS KILLED IN IRAQ - REPORTS


    A Pentagon source has said up to 130 US troops have been killed in fierce fighting in Iraq.

    The large scale battle, described as "intense", has taken place in the town of Ar Ramadi, 20 miles west of Fallujah.


    Sky News' David Chater said: "None of this is official yet - none of it is confirmed."

    But he added: "It sounds very much like this is being carried out by men who are militarily trained."

    Chater described the attack as "highly sophisticated".

    More follows...
     
  21. infraredline

    infraredline Formula 3

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    They should have put these words in BOLD
    We'll see I guess - I just haven't heard anywhere near 130, and I've been clicking around a little.
     
  22. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    Any Bush supporters still around? Time for regime change.

    Art
     
  23. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I will stay home in November; if you will stay home. LOL
     
  24. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Excellent synopsis of the situation, I completely agree.

    Before Iraq existed this are was actually 3 different countries. I think the UK united it as Iraq, God knows why
     
  25. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Biggest problem with pullin out of Iraq is that it would create a power vaccum that Assama, Iran, Saudi, Syria, & more psychotic fundamentalist Muslims will be killing to take over the place.

    Then again that doesnt sound like such a bad idea. Better they kill each other than our troops

    After Afghanistsn however we cant allow Iraq or Sudan or Somalia or any other Scheisshole to become a pirate state to breed more of Assamas inbred camel humpers
     

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