Is the "Supercar" market becoming Saturated?

Becoming????

It already is. Will someone tell Porsche, MB, Bentley et al to please turn off the faucet!

Dale

 

yea, no joke, it is getting out of control. It seems like all its about anymore is being better and faster than the other guys. The other topic that needs to be taken into consideration is what makes a supercar. If its price than we have to add RR/Maybach to the list. If its just speed cars like the Viper and 911 TT would make the list. IMO supercars are qualified by performance, and a limited production run, i feel like something that anyone with money can have doesn't qualify, but thats just me.

 

I really cannot define a supercar. It gotta be something that people "woo, aah", and clearly distinguishable from transportation daily cars. What is the requirement for supercars??

For me, saturated market for supercars is not that bad, as now I can own one! But when I sell, it's not good... (355 is not really in the class of supercars Jim mentioned)

What Jim listed are not that much compared w/ how many cars are available in the market. I appreciate more choices to be available though.

 

While there are some great choices out there right now, I think some of the OEM's are discovering that just because X number of people can afford your car, doesn't mean that they will automatically buy it.

Bentley has hit a home run with the Continental GT (sold out in 2004, sold out in 2005). Lambo has a great car on their hands with the Gallardo (sales over 1000 units). VW took the risk on these two and it seems to be paying off. But the numbers don't make up for slow VW and Audi sales.

Ferrari has nothing to worry about. There is still enough hype to keep the sales at this level for a while and they will go after emerging markets if their historic markets slow down. They won't increase production by anything dramatic any time soon.

The Maybach and the Phantom are flops. Sales goals were to be 1000 units this year. Maybach sold less than 400 through July, RR only 445. Insert big sucking sound here...

MB is going to start loosing more customers, not because of quality (which they are now admitting is a big issue), but because there will come a time when the guy who plunked down $200k for his SL65 will get pissed when his Domino's pizza guy shows up in an A-class. BMW learned this lesson with the Z8 and hasn't tried to extend their upper end market.

AM is doing well, but the division that they are in is in trouble (Jag is bleeding, again). Hopefully Ford won't cut their funding.

 

i wouldnt classify any Bentley in this category. Its all about 2-seats, insane looks, and insane performance.

Dont forget Saleen, Mosler...

 

Here's what I see for 150k+...

360 (sold 17k of em!)
430
Gallardo
Ford GT
911 Turbos (996+7)
575 (and newer '600')
Murcielago

Near 500k or more...
Enzo
Carrera GT
SLR
Murcielago Roadster

We can't have this many expensive cars... the carmakers are digging themselves into too deep a hole to battle for money. In a few years time the buyers might be gone... :dunno:

 

Here's the way I see it....

The more supercars now, the more choices I'll have available when they depreciate heavily. That's a good thing.

This is really similar to the late 80/early 90s supercar explosion. XJ220 anyone?

 

Tillman is exactly right. In 10 years or less we will all be able to have the supercars of 2005 at really good deals. Look at the prices of Carrera GT's and Gallardos. Both are dropping like rocks. Gallardo e-gears can be had in any color or configuration in the 150's and 160's compared to new ones near 190 with less than 500 miles on them. The porsches are dropping $50-100k after dealers were asking over msrp a few months ago. Ah choices.

 

I always considered a supercar to be a car that outperforms everything it is replacing. So in my opinion, going faster and faster is what a supercar is all about. The Viper isn't a supercar most likely b/c of its price and larger than normal supercar production numbers, but in speed and performance it definitely should be a super car at least IMO.

 

The only issue with today's modern supercars is that there are too many damn electronics on the cars. These things will be impossible to maintain in 20 years for lack of parts.

Napolis has the right idea. Collect cars from an era that you can still work on them without a laptop...

 

Well, here is my definition of a supercar:

0-60 mph in under 4.0 seconds
1/4 mile in under 12.0 seconds
Top speed of or over 200 mph

Unless it posses all of those three things I do not consider it a supercar, just an exotic. This only applys to todays cars. I still consider cars like the Ferrari F50 and Lamborghini Diablo supercars.

 

Erik, I agree, and in a lot of ways, they can't maintain them well now.
BMW's software woes, MB's issues, even the $6k Vanos units pressurized @ 700bar!! will preclude non-factory shops from working on them.
I am currently 300+ miles from any Aston, Lambo, or Bentley stores, and in many of the areas I drive in, there is NO cell coverage...You're screwed in Leakey TX if your car acts up.
I love how new cars set performance bars higher and higher, but the reliability needs to increase as well. Ferrari F1 did it, now the road cars(which are better than many) need to continue as well.
Where many live, one can't get service on much pre-WW2 stuff. Wish I had time or expertise enough to do more of what Jim G does.

Lee

 

Many a home-modified Camaro or Mustang can fulfill those requirements!

 

the supercar market has been flooded its sorta crazy...you know its bad when supercars share platforms and parts....Mercedes SLR and CHysler, ENzo and Maserati....

-jt

 

That's right. Platform sharring is something that should be left to "normal" cars. Super cars need to be their own car. We're not talking GM SUVs here!

 

Not to mention how much easier it is to buy near-supercar performance for a fraction of the price. You can buy cars like the Corvette, WRX, etc. and stay under $50K. Most of us are going to have a hard time wringing the maximum out of a Lambo or Enzo, let alone feel the difference between 3.8 and 4.5 second 0-60 times. I know there's the exclusivity factor, which is why all these supercars are being produced. It's just that they no longer differentiate themselves through untouchable performance.

 

Too many supercars?
Too many Corvettes, WRXs etc?


Ain't life grand?

 

The problem with the bottom feeding plan is that many of us will not buy an expensive car, even if we can or can't afford it, if the car will not hold its value.

For example, those who brought an Enzo did so knowing that it would be at least a break even deal.

Or in my case, I'm buying a $200K+ Stradale, which is utterly insane BTW, but I'm comfortable (no, make that delusional) with the deal knowing that it will hold its value.

But I'd be scared to death to buy a Porsche GT. Simply put, if I lost $100k on a car, my better half will make sure that this will be the last toy I buy. (Not to mention that the family jewels would be resting with the fishes.)

Sure there are a few buyers out there who don't give a rat's behind about how much their toys cost, but there aren't that many. If Porsche had only made, say, 500 GTs, they would probably hold their value. But 1,500! No way.

Same thing with the Ford GT. If Ford starts cranking out a couple thousand a year, you're gonna hear the soft thud of Napolis's keys falling out of a Lear Jet. The GT is arguably one of the best super cars being made today, but the number of fools like me who are willing to take their money and throw it out the window may be a deep river, but it is a narrow one.

Dale

 

Do you guys think that companies care if the cars they produce hold their value or not? I'm torn on this one.

From one side, Porsche for example, will make a lot more money off selling 1,500 CGTs than only 500. They have to recoup the R&D costs some how.

On the other hand, people are going to be leary about buying a car they know will deprechiate badly. It may also effect future sales.

Comments?

 

Car companies don't give a damn if their cars hold their value. The exception to that rule is when customers stop lining up because of it.

I think MB is the one that is setting itself up for failure in this regard with the SLR (they will make too many), the AMG line up (again, they made too many), and the Maybach (what do you mean a Mercedes isn't the top luxury car?).

I don't have an axe to grind with MB, but I think they will self implode in the next 5 years if their competitors corner them correctly.

 

I think the market for new supercars is still growing along with the world economy. But there will come a time where the market will become saturated and prices for nearly new stuff will tumble...Fortunately they will not fall off a cliff, because the there are still plenty of petrolheads who would value a 3 year old Ferrari more than a new high spec Merc/BMW.

 

My, my, my, feeling a bit feisty today, eh? Whut's da matter, been on the road too long?

I'll agree with you that the high volume manufactuers feel this way, e.g., MB and BMW, Rover, Volvo, Porsche. But the small shops like Ferrari appear to be very sensitive to this issue. Otherwise, why sell the Enzo for roughly one-half of its true market value? In fact, aren't all the other modern Ferrari super cars (288 GTO, F40, F50) selling for close to MSRP?

Then again, Ferrari shot itself in the foot when they rolled out the new Masers. They started by asking $90k for what everybody knew was a $70k car. So maybe Ferrari's pricing on its own cars is a fluke. Who knows?

Dale

 

Travelling hasn't made me fiesty. You've known me long enough to know that I speak my mind.

I think Maser will be able to get MSRP for their cars once the "image" changes in the marketplace. They are still trying to overcome the biturbo and Citroen days. While it may be a great car (and after driving Jim's GT last weekend, I will say first hand that they are a great GT), they still have some big dark clouds over their history that will take time to blow over. As long as they have the time (and the money), they will be a successful brand.

I just think that it is funny that Mercedes is becoming the true Volkswagen, supplying a car for every price point. Does anyone else see the irony here?

 

As much as I like the AMG lineup I agree with you on this. I think the pricing on the xx65 models (SL65, CL65 etc) is absolutely ridiculous. The price for a SL65 is the same as for a F430 here in europe, and value drops like a rock... Buy a xx65 and you'll lose about $100 in 2-3 years!

In general I do think there's just too many cars at the moment in the $150+ segment. It's going to affect the second hand market very negatively within a short time. In europe the second hand 360 prices are already dropping fast, and I think some owners are going to get caught with their pants down and lose a mint on the car - the result being that they may not venture into this segment again.

The dealers over here are having problems moving the new 360's they still have in the showroom, and the used market is close to being dead.

I'm getting more and more convinced that we're seeing the beginning of a 90's supercar bust.