News

Is there a max number of times you can rebuild a classic V12?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by rob lay, Nov 24, 2003.

  1. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Owner Miami 2018

    Dec 1, 2000
    48,995
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    What happens in 100+ years if that's the case?
     
  2. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 14, 2002
    6,929
    Rob, theoretically, it could be rebuilt any number of times. I don't know the specifics of each Ferrari V12, but don't they use aluminum blocks with steel cylinder liners (sleeves)? This would mean that you just keep swapping in new cylinder liners with each rebuild. Corvette guys have been re-sleeving 427 engine blocks in order to keep an original engine block going. In fact, I would think that a block that has been re-sleeved to restore the cylinder to ORIGINAL diameter would probably run cooler than a worn block that has been bored out to .040 or .060 oversize. (or whatever is oversized in the Ferrari V12 world. I'm thinking Chevy engine blocks.) Obviously crankshaft bearings would be replaced with each rebuild, as well as other items of wear. Alot could probably be learned from the WWII fighter plane restorers who rebuild engines in their P-51 and P-47 fighter planes. Those engines seem to keep going. Don't see why a Ferrari V12 couldn't keep going. Of course, in 100 years you biggest problem would be finding gasoline to run the car. By that time, running a fossil fuel motor will probably be illegal except for licensed museum displays.
     
  3. Tillman

    Tillman Splenda Daddy
    Global Moderator Owner

    Nov 26, 2001
    22,931
    E ' ' '/ F
    Full Name:
    Tillman!

    I'll be 135+ years old and won't really care :p
     
  4. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    If all the issues that Horsefly raised, like petrol supply, etc. do not stop the engine first, I personally just think the term 'rebuild' just gets bigger over time.

    By this I mean that eventually you will have to replace the crank due to ageing, and many other components ... so like the axe the engine will keep on going for ever, but less and less of the original engine will remain.

    I think your question could be answered by looking at what the vintage racers do for their cars. Look at the many Alfa Romeo P3's that are still racing, and the wonderful restorations those cars have been through.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
    Pete
     
  5. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Hey
    My Duesey is 72 and it runs like a top. I bet a well maintained block could last 200 years. Heads and blocks are the limiting factor and these days anything can be recast. Ferrari SPA recast P4 uprights for me.
     
  6. bill365

    bill365 F1 Rookie

    Nov 3, 2003
    3,319
    Chicago area
    Full Name:
    Bill
    Alcohol could be easily substituted for gasoline if it is not available. The parts can always be machined for a price. $$$
     
  7. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    8,965
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    Rob;

    We have some motors at our school that have been torn down and rebuild 250+ times and they stil run and shift fine. As long as it is done correctly you should not have any problems.

    Rob Guess "The Other Rob"
     
  8. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Owner Miami 2018

    Dec 1, 2000
    48,995
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    I was thinking more in terms of...

    - block cracks
    - throwing a rod
    - plain tolerance
    - runout
    - stripped bolt holes?
    - blocked water/oil passages
    - twisting/deformation

    I know I'm getting picky, just logically it seems like any piece of metal under that much stress, heat, and wear will have a limited life.
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Answers to Rob's points:

    - block cracks

    Weld block where possible, and yes many have been, or recast new block.

    - throwing a rod

    Assuming most of the damage will relate to block (see above), crank (make a new one if you cannot build up or simply regrind), conrods (replace with Carellos, probably been replaced already), pistons (replace with new ones), valves (replace with new ones), camshaft and rockers (repair cam if possible or replace with new ones).

    - plain tolerance

    I have read before that a major rebuild of a motor can involve remachining the block, to ensure that the tunnels line up, etc. I guess you can only do this so much with the block and heads (and other components), before you have to replace.

    - runout

    Not sure what you mean here but if you are talking about crank float or movement, that should be resolved by bearings or machining such that you obtain the correct crank control.

    - stripped bolt holes?

    Helli-coil, or replace with large bolt, if necessary stepped down to th correct size. I guess eventually the component that stripped may have to be replaced if unable to fix so that it can support the correct bolt torque.

    - blocked water/oil passages

    I think with all the modern methods that you would be able to clean them all now, but if not one could always drill OR develop another method of supplying oil.

    - twisting/deformation

    Again remachine or replace.


    In the end ANYTHING that was made once can be made again! Just might not have the same passage of time :)

    Pete
     
  10. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Phil Hughes
    I'm more worried about the skill level of the workforce, than material costs and availablity.

    Never mind 100 years, in 20 years, today's kids won't know what a carburettor is, or how distributors work.
     
  11. aventino

    aventino Formula Junior

    Jun 16, 2003
    768
    Hong Kong
    Full Name:
    David L
    Dunno about Ferrari V12's but we're looking at 1965-66 Shelby GT350's for the Tour D'Auto and Mille Miglia (sp?) and other road races around Europe since Daytona Comp's are currently waaaaaaaaaaaay out of our price range. A few have killed the 289 block (put a rod through in more than one place and the patches are getting excessive) but it seems that if the original matching numbers block comes with the car then it doesn't really matter that there is a replacement under the bonnet.

    Which reminds me, one of the Shelby clubs does a thread on current auction prices (goes back 3 years) so if you want to see how values are looking for anything Shelby (except GT40) the data is all there. Maybe for select Ferrari (such as the Daytona) the Ferrarichat forum could do the same?
     
  12. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Owner Miami 2018

    Dec 1, 2000
    48,995
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    I'll eventually have an online registry here that can have auction entries.
     

Share This Page