Steven Sherlock Holmes I told you several times that you didn't know what you are speaking about, why should we forgive you for your allegations ? You are "the detective", do "your job" or close the chapter and pass to another subject if you are not documented enough... Why should I give you all my homeworks ? I prepare a book, and if you will buy that book (we never know) you will discover one day what the author has to say according to what he has collected over 30 years of investigations. I have interviewed not only one time but plenty times all the period protagonists, if I share sometimes few infos here, it is because I agree to do it and not because you force me to reveal all my researches, Sherlock. Previous publication Alastair Clements 's article will differ on few details from what I will write, trust me on that... like for instance when Clements (you refer to) is also writing that #3586 came for the 1st time back to the Alps spots in 2019... that's a good one, we did it before in 2016. Years before Clements's article, Enzo Moruzzi explained me the story and because I asked him deeper questions and not superficial global questions, the colour is Orange... If it differs from what he told to that author , I'm not responsible. Be assured that I crossed my collected infos with several different factory period employees, which was not done by most of the other authors, including Alastair Clements. Next, nice demonstration of what Ferruccio was looking for "rosso" to be different from Ferrari, nobody thought about that before Waouuu. Between "your thoughts" and "their thoughts", they are too many thoughts in your litterature and not enough facts... what a fable... I knew you were going to the "Bricks school", so how could it be different ? Ah if you were right, I would admit it... sorry, it wil not happen, look at Ingrid Pussich's list, I have underlined in colours for you, Sherlock, so you can't miss the reading : 214 - Arancio Miura - #3586 - delivery date 2.7.68 215 - Rosso Miura - #3589 - delivery date 27.6.68 Both cars were on the production line at the same time, , one preceeding the other one, so far easy to understand Sherlock. If "Rosso Miura" was the same color as the wrecked Miura, it would have be #3589 selected by Enzo Moruzzi (according to your rethoric) and postponed delivery to early July instead of #3586... But no, it is #3586 which was selected because it was a shade of orange (a new shade of orange used for the 1st time) which was the closest to match the orange wrecked Miura... it is clearly and already stated by Enzo Moruzzi in the book of author Matthew Field : "The Self Preservation Society", that you deliberatly avoid to mention.... but may be you should ask Santa Claus to bring you one example, in addition to the Hasselblad picture showing clearly an orange colour. All your artistic colours demonstration is vanishing ... ...and you were asking yourself and offensing me about what was my contribution to the discovery of the car, apparently YOU are the only one to have missed it... Sherlock One more layer on top ? About your pitiful comment regarding Polo Storico.... Have a look on the pic below and look at the date : 06.2016 - still when Iain was the owner and #3586 was shoot at Polo Storico premises for the Polo Storico catalog 2016 - 2017... you lost one more chance to be discreet... and if the Polo Storico was taking months to send that Certification book in 2017 to Iain, this is a fact for which I had no control. Another layer ? => I see you blotted out the date on the Certificazione di Autenticita. Why was that? One more allegation, I did nothing, the page is exactly like that, it demonstrate you never had the book in hands, Sherlock All the pages are bented/linked, as the date is on of top of the book and of the accompany letter, you just write B.S., Sherlock Why should I be mentioned in the Clements's article ? I have no need to be named in the Alastair Clements's article, Iain has all my history knowledge on the topic (remember I sold him the car, so I had to demonstrate him the evidences... like I did a second time with my client Fritz Kaiser), but as you seem so desesperate to have one article in which I'm referred, Sherlock, read again the article published in Octane magazine, it should satisfy your bitterness. I prepare all the historical infos for my friend Iain, Bulls subjects, ask him, I challenge you Publically. I beat the nail : you don't know what you speak about. To conclude, the discovery of the original patch colour under the front indicator closes the debate, only a blind guy would insist or somebody in bad faith, Sherlock. We agree that we disagree Sherlock, we have better to do now. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
You asked me yesterday how dare I question Moruzzi and I replied that I wasn't, but it is actually you who is the one who is questioning him today. ROTFL. Yes, the car was orange. A reddy orange. This thread has never been about the authenticity of the car as a Lamborghini Miura, which has never been in question, but whether it is the Italian Job Miura. You replied yesterday to my post that included a point which was specifically about the car being Polo Storico certified as the Italian Job Miura after you sold it with you replying it was certified in 2017. After I called you out on it you've proved today it was just certified as an authentic Miura at that point, which was actually in 2016, but not as the Italian Job Miura then, which was not Polo Storico certified until 2019 as the Italian Job Miura, as confirmed in Iain Tyrrell's video. A question for you: Where is the Hasselblad picture of the driving Miura?
I have not... your reading is biaised. You show evidence of bad faith, I demonstrated you that Enzo Moruzzi provided another version prior to the one you seem to catch desesperatly, and not only to me but to somebody else that you still continue to avoid to refer to and to mention. Despite the fact that english is not my motherlanguage (which obviously is yours), the private inducements that I received today, demonstrated me that the understanding of my clarification is clear for quite many people. What a nice attempt, you try to get another answer to what I already answered you in one of my previous post... the authenticity is proven... go an do your homework, Sherlock, you missed something before. Ask your question to SK, he may answer you.
Olivier, My apologies to you as I have misunderstood your previous posts or missed that you had effectively said that the Polo Storico authentication as the Italian Job Miura was after your sale to Fritz Kaiser, when the certification of the car as an authentic Miura was received in 2017, but was actually dated 2016 by the date of the documents. I also apologise to you for my part in the descent of the tone of our exchanges. I do not doubt your enthusiasm, knowledge and efforts in researching these subjects by personally interviewing all the protagonists. Perhaps we can be more civil in future? There are a few things that I am not clear on, so perhaps you could clarify: Moruzzi said that as soon as the car came off the production line, which by the build sheet dates was 15th June, 1968, he drove it to the location, but according to Moruzzi the date he drove it to the film location was 26th June, 1968. May I ask if the filming dates are officially recorded somewhere, or are the dates from Moruzzi's memory? Moruzzi also stated that the crashed car was Rosso Miura, and of the 2 cars that were on the production line next to each other as you said, which were 3586 and 3589, why would 3586 in the new and different colour Arancio Miura be chosen over the same colour to the crashed car Rosso Miura 3589?
Your volte-Face is surprising, but I appreciate your fair-play and yes, we can be more civil in the future with less irony... None of the dates were from Moruzzi's memory. Eric introduced me to David Salamone who provided him the dates originally if I remember correctly. I also met David later at 2015 Retromobile exhibition and we had a cup of coffee while interviewing him. Then my investigations leaded to contact Rémy Julienne (The French stunt Maestro) who confirmed me also the dates. Unknown to me at that time, another work in parallel was leaded by Matthew Field who had also interviewed period people linked to the movie.... his book is a Must to have : "The Self Preservation Society" and I encourage you to buy it if you want to have a more reliable source than Alastair Clemens article. There are some mistakes in his article (but I'm not here to blame him), the context of that reportage was quick and Enzo Moruzzi is also getting older. When we interviewed him (me on one side and Matthew on the other side) Enzo's memory was more fresh than in last 2019 quarter. My first interview with Enzo was in 2010 and I met him every year until 2014 when I interviewed him twice. Since I met him again in some occasions in Italy but without interview. Below picture shows you the Production notepage with the dates, so YES, it is officially recorded. Forget the Alastair Clements article... Moruzzi stated to me several times (I have not yet published my book) and he stated to Matthew Field (who has already published his book) that the wrecked car is "orange"... not "Rosso Miura". Now start the production sequence from the 201st Miura, they are all produced in June, most of them delivered in June... look down to the 216th... they are only these 3 cars that could match the movie biaised colour : 214 - Arancio Miura - #3586 - delivery date 2.7.68 215 - Rosso Miura - #3589 - delivery date 27.6.68 216 - Rosso Alfa acrilicp - #3583 - delivery date 28.6.68 These cars were on the production line at the same time, #3586 preceeding the 2 others, which have been delivered end of june during the record of the movie with #3586 in The Alps. Again, if "Rosso Miura" or "Rosso Alfa" were the closest colour to the wrecked Miura, #3586 would never be selected by Enzo Moruzzi. Again, #3586 was selected because it was a new shade of orange (used for the 1st time) which was the closest to match the "orange" wrecked Miura already booked for the Paramount production in April... that car is still a clue today, but it was wrecked earlier in 1968 according to crossing infos I've collected. One more evidence, it is also stated by author Matthew Field : that Troy Kennedy's screenplay mentioned the orange Miura... All these additionned facts + the analysis of the production sequences + #3586 builtsheet speciali Lavori detail + Hasselbald picture + the original paint patch discovered under the indicator lead only to "Arancio Miura "orange - new shade", and they are 18x Miura listed with Arancio Miura colour in Ingrid Pussich's list, it is not a mistake of typing or interpreting the colours . Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
P400 #3072 production #43, engine #1220 the crashed Italian Job Miura? What about P400 chassis number 3072 said to be Rosso, which could have been Rosso Miura, as it was said to have been an orange red colour when owned by Grace Bumbry, engine number 1220, production number 43 delivered on 18.7.67 being the crashed Italian Job car? The same chassis and engine number were used for Rosso Miura in colour P400 production number 272 delivered on 27.12.68. Steering wheels may have been different but could have been changed and it did have 2 mirrors on the bonnet at some point, but they could have been removed to match the new driving car. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Here is #3072 after our team in Belgium has resprayed it in Brussels.... and still belongs to same VIP collector fellow Roland DIeteren Image Unavailable, Please Login
According to Moruzzi the engine was taken out of the crashed car and the original owner bought a new Miura with the same engine and chassis number so 3072 matches this along with the colour, as seen in the picture with Grace Bumbry in the car. “They took out the engine and the original owner bought a new Miura with the same engine and chassis number to avoid paying import duties!”
I can easily ask my very good friend (who is now the Head of workshop at the collection) to check the Bertone body , if it is still #43 ?
Yes, please ask your very good friend to look for the #372 (prod #272) or #143 (prod #43) Bertone body numbers and 1220 engine number. Perhaps somebody here knows somebody who knows Grace Bumbry to ask her if 3072 was crashed in her and her then husband Andreas Jaeckel's ownership. Mind you, some people do not like to admit they crashed a car and also may not want to admit to having a new car built with the engine from the crashed car and using the same chassis number to avoid paying import taxes on the new car. Why else would Lamborghini and Bertone make a new car using a new chassis and body of the exact same nearly new P400 model anyway?
There were a number of other new Miuras built using the same chassis number and old engine along with its number, but looking at the register, 3072 is the one that seems to be the best fit. Prod #38, chassis #3054, engine #1187 built into prod #710 but in the wrong colours and too late as the newer car to have been the crashed IJ Miura. Prod #273, chassis #3766, engine #2490 was built into Prod #474 but was initially delivered on 6.12.68 so too late to be the IJ crashed car and the wrong colour. Prod #126, chassis #3312, engine #1639 was built into Prod # 479 but if a crashed car it may well have been after the IJ film as the new car wasn't delivered until 2.4.70. Prod #157 chassis #3408, engine number 1787 got rebuilt twice into prod #480 and #671, but #480 was completed too late to have been a crashed car for the movie being completed 28.7.70 and the wrong colours. Prod #243, chassis #3676, engine #2296 got rebuilt into prod #526 initially delivered 11.1.68 but was RHD and the wrong colour Bianco. Prod #20, chassis #3006, engine #1091 got rebuilt into prod # 531 but was the wrong colours and probably got rebuilt too late to have been the crashed car as prod #531 wasn't delivered until 10.7.70. Edit re 3006. Was crashed by Johnny Hallyday on 28.8.67. Damage on other side of the car to the ravine IJ Miura. Strange how the engine and chassis number number weren't reused until nearly 3 years later. Prod #242, chassis #3673, engine #2236 was rebuilt into prod # 751 but was initially delivered on 5.8.68 so too late to have been the crashed car. There are also a few P400S cars that were built into SVs but are obviously too late to be the crashed IJ Miura.
Allow me to correct you : Bertone body #143 (prod #43) never existed.... Bertone body number chronology was biaised by adding the "100" on top starting from the 187th Miura built + 100 = #287 Bertone body number That car is #3516, exMartin Riggs raced Miura that I chased for years and found in a sweet retirement at Renaud Foundation in Switzerland. All this to said, that Bertone body #43 is prod #43
Before going too far investigating on this VIN and its derivatives, as you listed them later in another post, what leads you to believe it could be that #43 the crashed Miura used in the movie ???
I thought I'd already explained that but it was from what Moruzzi said: “They took out the engine and the original owner bought a new Miura with the same engine and chassis number to avoid paying import duties!” Taking what Moruzzi said as being correct, the details of the car would surely be in the register, so I looked at the register with all Miuras that had been rebuilt or a new car made using the old chassis number and engine. 3072 fits with its colours and the dates. The others don't really fit for the reasons I listed. Did you get in touch with your friend regarding the body numbers and engine number on 3072 production number 272? Thanks for the clarification on when the additional 100 was added to the body numbers.
^^^Also 3072 Prod #43 had a thin chassis using 0.9 mm gauge steel whereas 3072 Prod #272, if made with a new chassis, would be in 1.0 mm gauge steel so perhaps this could be checked?
Well, you are still referring to that Clemens's 2019 article, Moruzzi gave me another version 10 years ago, repeated the following years and I believe he mixed the stories now, like for the colour... I don't bame him, but I trust much more the version I have also because it is crossed with others witnesses.... and thanks to not ask me, I keep this for my book. Yes, next week we will clarify that point. You're welcome
May I ask if you know that the crashed IJ Miura was not 3072 #43? What other reason than the car being crashed would 3072 #43 be made into a new Miura with a new chassis and different production #272? Does anyone know the date of this pic? Just wondering if it's 3072 prod #43 or #272? Image Unavailable, Please Login
I have not yet identified the crashed car of the movie. But, I have more leads than #43, more Miura were crashed at that period....
Okay, thanks. It does depend on whether Moruzzi was correct or not then in his Alastair Clements interview regarding if the crashed IJ car's engine was used again in a new body and chassis using the same chassis number to avoid paying import duties.
