Nice article with stunning pictures. Also the story is well told IMO. Then there will always be someone to disagree but Octane lets the reader decide. Of course I am biased, but I think I've made up my mind.
Not much to decide on because the detractors voices haven't been heard. Otherwise the physical evidence looks pretty compelling on the face of it. It's a shame there doesn't appear to be much documentary evidence however, other than the registry information and some filling in the blanks with dates etc. Then there's good old infallible human memories to fall back on.
For those who haven't had the chance to read the Octane article, here are few of their stunning pictures : Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Joe ; before you and others start referring to this as the "Italian job " Miura Octane magazine clearly states the jury in there mind , is still out so to speak. In spite of what they report to be compelling evidence they are still inviting views from both sides . You posting a pic of the owner with the car in question entitled "Iain and the Italian Job Miura" is helping to perpetuate an untruth at this point . Do you want to believe so badly even before the trial has ended ?? That said the stitching imperfections seems to be of paramount importance here so I will share my experience about the period Lamborghini stitching when I had the seats in my Espada redone with the help of Valentino and the work of Bruno Paratelli . The rolls that hold the perforations on the seat fronts ( every second roll) were redone by Bruno using the exact same method that was used originally in '71 according to Valentino. This consisted of pleating an entire swatch of skin (see attached photo Valentiono sent me during the redo) to pre locate the future roll stich locations to accept the perforations from the machine that perforates them . I did not expect this but rather I expected the rolls to be constructed from separate pieces of leather then all sewn together to form the seat front to ensure all perforation lines would be perfectly horizontal to each other . That result was then shipped back to me flat and when my upholstery guy called to say there was a problem I was for a while , worried . He insisted that as a result of the cut pleats and the one skin perforated 5 times he could not get perfectly horizontal perforation lines if he were to make all the rolls themselves horizontal when sewn . I sadly agreed he continue the best way possible and the result is perfectly horizontal rolls while some are the perforation lines are not level or parallel to each other . something only I and few others would ever notice . So here's where it gets interesting ......... Sad that I had spent a bundle on what I thought at the time was a half assed job I then studied a few unrestored series 2 Espada seats and found that their perforations were in fact NOT horizontal and not parallel to each other in THE EXACT SAME places on the seat fronts. This proved to myself and Bob Stadermann that at the very least the method of redo was the same as original and that my seats were in fact incorrectly period correct !!! But how then could they match so perfectly after a span of over forty years ? I think then Bruno had to have used a common original pattern to lay the new skins on . I also think back at a time when many cars were being constructed at once the ladies who did this (as mentioned in Octane ) would have also used patterns to cut many pieces of leather all at once to ensure conformity . Sure they may have been stitched by hand but irregularities in stitching it seems could be born from following the SAME flawed pattern . So this in my mind creates much doubt in this area. in addition to this point out the grain pattern of the leather itself is very inconclusive in the pictures shown in Octane !!! so just as my story is made from what I know and the evidence or lack thereof I have made my conclusions about my car . So to that point they also only have the evidence they have nothing more, to draw their conclusions and I just shot a theoretical hole in it ! Fact is they just don't know !!! they only think they know . Even Enrico Maffio of Lamborghinis historical dept is not yet convinced either as stated in the article . Much then like the Image of Jesus in a slice of toast people believe really what they want to here!! I for one genuinely hope proof comes to verify this is the very car but at this point I think we might still be looking at the image of Jesus in the toast . Also I respect the opinions of Simon Kidson and would also love to hear why he is in disagreement on this as well . regards Gary Espada 8394 EtypeFHC 887465 Image Unavailable, Please Login
I could have never anticipated that myself and the obscure reference to Espada perforation of seating leather would ever have been referenced in authentication of the Italian Job Miura. What a wild and crazy world! Stealing from When Harry Met Sally ... I'll have whatever Garry is having!
Merely that my conclusions are based purely on all that what I had in front of me at that time to allow me to draw that conclusion. Difference in my case is that it won't change the value of my car if in fact others are led to believe, by oh hmm let's say another million dollars maybe?? Bob please also read the article in Octane prior to your next response regarding my post Gary Espada 8394 EtypeFHC 887465
If I understand correctly you are looking at the horizontal pattern in the headrest. I agree that is not conclusive. However I am looking at where the perforations meet the side of the headrest. To me these are much more subject to variation and there is a good match between the two cars. This combined with the stitching pattern on the center gauge panel are very convincing for me. Cheers Jim
Actually, that very open-minded "let the public decide" notion was my idea when I was contacted by an editor, as you'll see posted earlier. My reference as "The Italian Job" Miura is within this thread, which itself is titled with a question asking the question. With that in mind, feel free to draw conclusions one way or another, that is encouraged. My personal feeling has always been that it is very likely the car, but I am open to considering anything that contradicts this belief.
Surely this can't rest on a bizarre "let the public decide" notion? Auction houses and brokers certainly have nothing to lose in suggesting that it could be that's for sure.
Gary I wasn't taking sides and I haven't read the article so I don't know what the "stitching" reference is all about. Gary is 100% correct about the perforations being crooked and that they were done in one huge piece. My upholster wasn't going to do it that way and the place that specializes in leather perforation here in the NE won't make the perforations that way either. Given the number of rejected perforated strips I got back I'm glad they didn't screw up an entire piece of leather. I also didn't want crooked perforations so mine are less original. I may have the original face piece in my collection of strips. This peculiarity which Gary speaks of was documented in photos from my car for another person currently restoring an S1. I guess that's how I got drafted ... Now I'll have to pick up a copy of the magazine.
Agreed! I think Lamborghini fans worldwide would welcome real proof with open arms for all the right reasons money aside. Hopefully the gent at Lamborghini historical dept can dig something up soon to verify all. Gary Espada 8394 EtypeFHC 887465
I think its the right approach, in the absence of anything definitive. Historical items don't always come perfectly presented with full documentation, so from an objective perspective, the right thing to do would be to leave some room for question, especially as there are no factory records suggesting the car's early assignation (say, sold to a film company, with plausible or corroborating date). Everyone likes real proof, but sometimes it simply isn't forthcoming. Its the right approach in this instance IMHO.
Another pretty good article: https://drive-my.com/en/retro-carss/item/2167-1968-lamborghini-miura-p400-the-italian-job.html -mick PS Is this a repeat of the Octane article?
To verify all... You are dreaming Gary... IMPOSSIBLE at 100%, they are too many individual files missing or incomplete in the "archivio". I hope before the 60 Anniversario, that department will be ready, if not before...
Thank goodness our legal system doesn't work like that. I believe it's referred to as mob rule. ob·jec·tive əbˈjektiv/Submit adjective 1. (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. "historians try to be objective and impartial" synonyms: impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced, nonpartisan, disinterested, neutral, uninvolved, even-handed, equitable, fair, fair-minded, just, open-minded, dispassionate, detached, neutral "I was hoping to get an objective and pragmatic report" Who exactly qualifies?
Interesting you take this position here and now with this vehicle..YET this vehicle, "Cheeta LIVES" with WAY more documentation AS WELL as stamped numbers on the engine, the frame and else where to verify it as what it was...you just flat out called it of no value and NOT the same vehicle...wonder why that is... I guess when it comes out to be shown then we can all take this "word of advice" from you? https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/lamborghinichat-com-sponsored-cats-exotics/351947-cheeta-lives.html
if not a repost, interesting link from Ed, and still about #3586, here is its fine tune up... with a singer ear... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBeNbZlEYxk
Fantastic. Thank you for sharing this, and I think you'll find it will indeed go back to Le Grand St Bernard Pass! Image Unavailable, Please Login
