Ok, all the MS fans will say I did it again and started another MS hater thread. So be it. I was just curious whether the understeering problem is really what keeps MS from reaching his former form. Because his fans are betting the farm on it: If Merc doesn't cure the understeer problem for 2011, then chances will look bleak for MS to win an 8th title. The Michael I watched over the years was the best driver in F1 and it didn't matter to him what problem a car had. He would wrestle it to the top of the podium regardless. So I found it a bit hard to believe that understeer could be such a big issue. I did a little bit of a google search and found some interesting hits (once you get the 2010 cobwebs out of the way): http://f1-sim-racer.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1300.75;wap2 Schumacher 1993 F1 Benetton Onboard lap AdelaideDQ Watch Schumacher's hands and his front tires, they are really working hard on turn in. Honestly, the mod feels just like it looks in the video, so I really can't complain. I've seen more than a few 93 videos and honestly the cars have the right feel. Maybe the understeer is just something with driving style that needs to get adjusted. I realize they talk about a game here, but the point is that they are comparing it to the reality of the 93 cars. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/kevingarside/2378597/Ferrari-leave-F1-for-dead.html To have problems with the car and still make it to the finish is really exceptional," said Schumacher, a master of understatement as well as understeer. Apr 12, 1998 - Ferrari's Schumacher wins Argentine Grand Prix ... find AP Online articles. STAN LEHMAN Associated Press Writer AP Online 04-12-1998 BUENOS ... Schumacher said that after hitting Coulthard his car began understeering in right hand corners. I had to push hard to make the second pit stop ... From Article: Ferrari's Schumacher wins Argentine Grand Prix - AP Online | … - Related web pages www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-19794864.html?refid ... These are just a few examples, I'm sure there is a ton more. Obviously it is a combination of things, understeer, different cars, different tyres and no chances of testing. Not denying that. But to put all eggs in the understeering basket is probably not going to bring the desired change. Discuss.
I'm not sure if the understeer is the real problem for MS or not, but I recall Eddie Irvine saying in an interview while he was at Ferrari that people kept saying how much Schumacher liked an oversteering car. He then said that he had tried Schumachers set up a few times and just couldn't live with the amount of understeer that the car had!.
I will take my place in line for my serving of crow... I personally did not think that MS would have returned unless he was SURE that he would be extremely competitive, if not dominant. This was also the opinion of many (if not the majority) of knowledgeable racing fans. ...unfortunately it appears those days are in the past... If MS, with his superhuman fitness, ability, and great racing mind is unable to be a top driver at the age of 41, then I don't see anyone else realistically competitive in F1 past the age of 40. Give the man his props, he is conducting himself in a professional manner and is still talented enough to compete in F1...just not one of the "top guns" anymore. The King is DEAD...Long Live the King... Frank
IMO I believe the time MS took out from the sport, has had a bigger effect than he thought it would. It is very interesting to see how it will all play out, I'm glad he is back in the sport, even just from this perspective. However like has been posted if the understeer problem has not been sorted, or it does get sorted and he still in not in contention... then what!!
To be fair to Schumacher, he seems to be taking it all in his stride and appears to be much more relaxed than he was in his Ferrari days (publically at least!).
I suppose all we can do is wait till next year. IMO he can't deal with the narrow tires etc and it looks like he's using almost every session (including races) as extended testing for next year. We can only hope I think. If he's still rubbish next year, or at least not outracing his teammate, it's over.
2011 will be judgement year for MS. If he's not competitive, i'll have to agree with Andreas on every factor.
Well, surely he will pass his prime at sometime. Why couldn't this time have come already? As Andreas said, in the earlier days, Schumacher would take a car to a level higher than it would be capable of in the hands of a mere mortal, no matter how much understeer it had. He made Benetton a dominant worldchampion (since he took the title with two or three DQ's and one win taken away) as early as in 1994 and even more so in 1995. After he was gone, they quickly fall back to their pre-Schumacher place in the pecking order (waiting for Renault and Alonso). He gave Ferrari three wins in 1996, where they had scored exactly two wins in the years 91 to 95 combined. He was simply the man. Like it or not. Today however, he is not. Anyone who hasn't heard anything about Michael Schumacher before 2010, will not recognize a legendary champion in his racing today. To me, that is not a problem. Nothing he does today, can take away of the years in which that legend was built. Only problem is, those years are in the past and it is time Schumacher realized that as well.
It seems that for the typical driver understeer is a problem if it doesn't fit his particular style. I'm not conviced that is MS's actual problem as exceptional drivers can drive around a car's shortfalls and be very quick. I think MS used to be such a driver. Ayrton Senna did not have a particular style but rather adjusted his driving according to the cars strengths and weaknesess.
The cause of his understeer is that the CoG is too far forward in the car. This is why they moved the front suspension forward in Spain. MS took several years to get Ferrari back to the front, not just occasionally, but in the kind of domination never seen before. During this time, MS himself finally figured out what a car should feel like to be quick. The current one does not feel right. If MS was closer to 30 than to 45 he could probably muster up the nerve to drive the current car on and over the ragged edge (a bit more like Vettle than Webber). However at his age, he might not have the reflexes to drive over the edge as far, and needs a car more suited to him and the feel he desires. As explained elsewhere, MS want a car that responds "right now" to steering input. Understeering cars do not have this property, nor do oversteering cars! In F1 getting the CoG correct puts the car where the team can adjust it on a per track and per tire situation. Now, the really interesting thing would have been if F1 still allowed unlimited testing so that more aero and suspension trials to dial in their car. THis would ahve shown if MS still has it (with the car moving forward) or not (other teams are better). Still, mid pack in a two year old team is "not so bad" {Yes, I know it started with Honda,...}
My 02c; - He (and me!) have been surprised by young Nico's pace. - He *really* misses testing. - The car just doesn't "suit him" (for whatever reason). Even Ayrton had a few like that over the years. Sure, they could also overcome like no one else, but they had to "feel it" - He's just not feeling it right now. Is that 'cos he's too old? I don't think so...... - He and Ross will have a test plan in place for this winter that'll make the others look like amateurs..... They'll come out with *the* car in 2011...... "Write him off at your peril" Cheers, Ian
I'd have to think it's exactly that, the understeer. If you think back, Michael was never able to tailor his driving style to the car. It took a while for him to get really competitive with Benetton, even though his talent was apparent early. Once the team designed the car around him he was able to maximize its potential. Same with Ferrari. The Mercedes was designed around Button and they have two totally different styles. I'd say give him till next year and if he keeps getting smoked by Rosberg then we can say, he's really done.
I think it's the understeer and a combination of a few other things. Remember, he is 40, coming back to the highest level of racing after a 3 year layoff with different tires, different cars, a car that behaves opposite they way he likes, and a much more competitive F1. NONE are excuses, just reality. That being said, I believe this season is a long test session for he and Brawn. He is not after results but after what he can do to tailor the car to his style for '11 and '12. I am a MS fan, but we will know 2-3 races into the season next year if it's him. All this speculation if all for not until next year. Alex
You may be right. Im really surprised at how many on here think 40 is over the hill. It might be in the US where the average person weighs in more than a 2 year old elephant. but in Europe 40 is prime time baby!
*Sigh* No one is saying that 41 makes you ancient but in F1 terms you'd be historically hard-pressed to find a driver still competitive at that age other than the real early days which are not comparable to today... Plus, in Europe 40 year olds look about 70 thanks to the cigarettes and lack of teeth
The peculiar design of this year's front tyres are the main reason why Michael Schumacher has struggled in his return to Formula 1. That is the view of Mercedes GP boss Ross Brawn, who reckons Schumacher's driving style is not suited to the Bridgestone rubber. Schumacher has been overshadowed by team-mate Nico Rosberg this season, the seven-time champion having scored 38 points to Rosberg's 94. "I think there is a tendency with these front tyres - because they are very peculiar," said Brawn. "They saturate very quickly in terms of providing grip and I think that is probably where we haven't got hold of the situation. We haven't found a good way of using them. "One of the big things for us this year was the front tyres, as the tyre compounds have changed. And we haven't got on top of that. I think Nico, as part of the evolution of the tyres, is very skilled and very talented at using the tyres. "I don't think Michael has quite worked out how to get the best from these tyres. Some tracks where the tyres are perhaps not such an issue then he is fine, where you get tracks like this where finding a way of getting the tyres to work is hard. "I also don't think they reward an aggressive style. Michael's talents are an aggressive-style car that is on the edge of stability and controlling it there. I don't think these tyres reward such an approach, so it will be interesting next year to see what Pirelli come up with." Brawn believes the situation could change next year, when Pirelli becomes Formula 1's sole supplier and introduces a different tyre design. "I think the characteristic we have on the front tyre at the moment is quite unusual, in the way because of the construction and choice of compounds, you put a load into it and it doesn't give more grip it just flat lines, and that isn't very common for a tyre," Brawn added. "Normally they fade away a bit, but they never flat line in a way this tyre does, so I don't think Pirelli will set out to create a tyre like that, and I am not sure they even know how to create a tyre like that. "I think it was a response from the FIA to encourage Bridgestone to make tyres with the weight more rearward, and this was all wrapped up in the KERS thing."
I don't believe understeer is the dominant problem... it's one of many. In addition to a fundamental weight distribution issue, and front tire utilization issue, I think their earo is way off too. If you look at top speeds at any track, the W01 is never near the top despite having a first rate engine. They have a bunch of problems which will keep the car from being a front runner beyond getting it's balance to suit MS. Nico IS doing a better job despite the cars limitations and this does cause me to question Michaels performance. Has he truelly lost his feel for the edge? Have his reflexes slowed due to age? Is he perhaps sacrificing a few spots knowing the season is lost for the sake of testing for next year? I honestly don't know BUT- I find myself more interested in seeing how he did versus checking to see if Red Bull managed to give away another victory. It's nice to see Ferrari back on track now and the new points system appears to have extended the season but for Merc- MS- Brawn and Haug.... they need to find a Newey type quickly. The car and it's development are just not on par with their immediate peers.
