I've been thinking...

One nice thing about being an old fart is not having to pretend that I even have a shot at kicking MS's butt. I raced motorcycles as a kid (TT and dirt track), but, now that I have started the downhill run, I've got nothing to prove and everything to lose.

However, frisky driving even on back roads at dawn on Sunday is getting riskier and riskier. Between the radical bicyclists trying to disprove the laws of physics, Rubbies riding in packs of 40 at 50 MPH, Sheriff Jim-Bob and so forth and so on, it is getting harder and harder for a gal to have some fun.

Plus, after spending a day at the track with a Stradale, I'm convinced that the track is where I want to be.

So, what's the perfect track car? I already have street-legal Spec Miata that I'll probably go ahead make into a race car, even though it is a 99 and not yet legal in Spec Miata. But old mister right foot keeps asking for more...

Howza bout dis? I'm thinking that a used 360 Challenge car is the way to go. They trade for about $100 to $125. The magic box stuff probably costs about around $30k, yes/no/maybe? Tires and other bs will push the number up to, say, $150 to $175.

Expensive, of course. But this is still a lot cheaper than a Stradale. However, I'll have full balls out race car, complete with roll cage and whatnot.

So what do you think? Would a 360 Challenge make a good play car? I'm not looking to do Grand Am or that bs. As the Lady sang, "Gurls just wanna have fun!

Dr "Walter Mitty" Who

 

Dale,

Check with SCCA. It's my understanding that the 99 Miata's will be added to Spec Miata effective March 1 of this year.

As for a 360 Challenge, if you have the time, money and patience............go for it, but be prepared for downtime on those cars. I see more and more 360 C's with electrical problems at track events.

Also understand that if you bend sheet metal it's very expensive to repair. The problem area is the front clip. If you need to replace the front clip or do extensive repairs to it you are easily looking at $40,000 to start with.

I still think a Porsche Cup car (new 997 is coming out) is a better way to go but if money is not a determining factor then the the horse from Maranello trumps the horse from Stuttgart every time.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
www.flatoutracing.net
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Dale, don't listen to that cheapskate Kofod.

Is it the marque, or racing/driving in general? I've found that a lot of the fun in racing lies in the who and where - if you like Ferrari and that community, then your question is answered. The PCA community is similar, but much, much larger and more active. It's a toy, where do you want to play?

IMO, buy a 360C if you want to race in the Challenge series, or want a track car to run with some of the fastest cars at Ferrari oriented track days. I believe the 360C can run in one or two series other than SCCA now - for SCCA, it doesn't seem like a great choice. The 360C will be expensive to run, but life is short. And for track use, I'd pick a 360C over a Stradale - and I own both.

If you just want to race or drive, and marque is less important for you, then you have a world full of choices. The only downside to spec miata is that, if you're used to big horsepower cars, or formula cars, the miatas may seem slow. SM is a great deal, great drivers, very competitive, etc etc - you just may not find in it the thrill you want.

Have you looked at the spec series, like Panoz? Try a Panoz race, they've got a good program, cheap track insurance, etc.

As for the "perfect" track car - a 333 looks pretty good to me, cost, practicality and common sense aside.

Good luck, will

 

Dale,

When I bought the 355C, I’d been vacillating between just doing track days in GT3 or racing again with a 355C or 360C on a "club" level, without any concern for seasonal points, cheater parts, teardowns……

I think Rob’s "Ferrarichat" series within NASA is going to be perfect. The nice thing about running within NASA, is that even if I’m the only Ferrari, or it’s just me & Rob, there should be a nice turnout of "closed wheel" race cars to run with. Rob’s series will be open to all Ferrari race cars 348C, 355C, 360C and anything else.

While the 360C’s do look like a bargain, I chose the 355C over the 360C because: I think a racing sportscar needs a clutch pedal, I’m hesitant to jump off into the "black box 360", and I’ve read that the 360C’s handling is pretty unforgiving at the limit.

You should come up to MSR Mar5&6, for the NASA race. It will be my maiden 355C race and Rob should be there with his.

Mark

 

I have gone back & forth on this too, Dale. Here is my $0.02:

Jon is right about SCCA bringing in 1999 or newer Miatas. To me, the Spec Miata Torque Monster [sic] is the perfect track car. It teaches all the best skills w/o the luxury of horsepower to cover mistakes. It is nearly bulletproof. And repairs & maintenance are dirt cheap. Hell, a new motor costs less than a set of brake rotors for a Ferrari.

But if you really want a true badass race car, I vote for a used 996 GT3 Cup car. They are rapidly dropping in price. The parts are VERY reliable, and don't break nearly as often as those on 360C's (in my opinion). They are very easy to drive under the limit, and there is huge PCA support here in Texas at DE's etc., both at TWS & MSR. Plus, they are slightly more accommodating to taller guys like us.

 

My vote is for a Porsche cup car. They are very durable and capable race cars. I've been attending PCA and BMW events at Road Atlanta for many years. Ferrari challenge cars and Porsche cup cars are both present. The Porsches spend more time on the track and less time getting fixed.

 

Interesting points. I probably should quit posting late at night because I wasn't too clear on my intentions. What I'm thinking about is giving up on having a road going Ferrari or any other nice sports car. It's a mean world out there, and it is getting meaner.

What I'll do instead is to buy a 360C and a condo at some place like MSR. I wasn't thinking about getting involved in any race series, although it might be fun to do some blocking for Mark and just piss the hell out of Rob.

In other words, no Maranello, no Stradale, no whatever. I'll just buy an Audi 8L, drive to the "Club," play Walter Mitty - Ricky Racer a couple of weekends a month.

For competitive racing, SM has got to be the only real way to go for an old fart like me. I'll leave the Grand Am stuff for you real hot shoes. (BTW Dave, it looks like Ara will start racing in Grand Am.)

So what do you think about a country club car? The reason I brought up a 360C is that the Stradale was the best sports/race car that I have ever driven. Mark, I hear you about the 6-speed, but have you tried the F1 in a Stradale or 360C? It will make a believer out of you.

And yes, as always, Porsches make more sense. But the engine is in the wrong place! Porsche has worked wonders with this design, but...

Are the 360Cs that unrealiable? After all, the motor is still stock, yes/no/maybe? I realize that you have to buy the computer stuff to keep them running. I probably do need to get out more and talk shop. Perhaps the Formula Madza or other spec series might be the way to go. It is just that the Stradale was s-o-o-o sweet!

BTW Mark, when are you going to build your track!

Dr "Ricky Racer" Who

 

Man, you need to drive one (or catch a ride in one) before you say that. A 996 Cup car will blow you away with how good it is. There is a reason they keep winning in LeMans, Daytona, etc etc etc... Seriously.

 

Dont just look at the car but the whole package; Repair costs and who can do them, how long for parts if broken, do I have anyone to race against, if you want to take it to the next step can the car be competitive in its class, is there support to learn the car , track, and how to go faster ,etc. For me the answer was the tube frame Formula Mazda. The bonus is that I get to race against the up and coming young lions in wheel to wheel action; well not just yet, at this point I'm working on lap times but I'm still in the same race. Its also nice after running to just fill the tank with premium, check the fluids ,clean the bales of hay from the radiator screens and go. Spec Miata is in this league just a notch down in speed.

 

Dale, consider one of the many types of Sport Racers out there. Mazda, Stohr, Radical...

 

Ok I am going to expound on two points raised here:

1) Getting rid of your street Ferrari's ? Think twice on this. My biggest and only regret to converting the 355 into a Challenge car was missing the opportunities to drive my Ferrari on the street. I didn't think it would make any difference at all because for the most part, when the car was a street 355, I didn't drive it much on the street anyway. I worked from home so it was a rare occasion that I took the car out for a sunday drive after I started adding things like a rear wing and other bits (before it was converted).

About the second year I really missed listening to the exhaust note at low revs (like pulling away from a stop light), enjoying driving on a nice day with the window down.......and stuff like that.

I went the same route you are thinking of. I went out and bought an expensive luxo barge (BMW 750iL with sport suspension). Not the same, not even close. Got tired of the 750 in about 3 or 4 months and yearned for my Ferrari.

All this became quite apparent when I had a 348 Spyder on loan for a week. First off I have never been impressed with the performance of a 348 and second I have no affinity for convertibles. Structurally they are a huge compromise. But after a week in that 348 I really missed a street Ferrari. It just wasn't in the budget for both a street and track Ferrari.

I really think you will miss driving a Ferrari on the street. It's quite different than driving or racing a Ferrari on the track.

2) As far as the reliability of 360 C's I think it's highly dependant on who works on them and how much preventitive maintenance you do. I run in the Mid Atlantic and Empire State Region FCA events and combined there are at least 10-15 of these cars I saw at the track on a regular basis.

Some never had any problems (at least 3 such cars from FOW's stable including WCH's car). But there were at least two 360 C's that ran out of FOW's stable that never ran right and were always experiencing problems at the track. They were never simple things that the SD2 could simply pull up and be corrected.

At Empire State Region events it was basically the same with about half the cars never missing much track time, but the other half always being worked on.

I think part of the solution is to buy the best 360 C's out there. I know WCH's was practially a showroom car and the other two cars that ran out of FOW without problems were raced for one season only and not abused.

One of the worst cars was I believe one of Jim Kenton's old 360's which was sold to an FOW customer for 120K two years ago. It took 5 track events before the owner could get it to run right. He ended up selling it about a year later and it was one of the first 360 C's sold for around 90K. The car was a piece of junk from what I had been told.

The most important thing to remember is that the 360 C is miles and miles more complicated than a 355 C from an electrical standpoint. There is just so much more to go wrong.

And lastly......when the 360 C goes out of production and the F430 C comes out you can forget about finding parts for the car at reasonable prices. I had two fender benders in my 355 C that required some body work. The first time I had to replace the carbon fiber front bumper it costs me $1800 unpainted. But a year later after the 355's had been out of the Challenge series we could only find one or two such bumpers and the price had jumped to $2800 unpainted.

The most marked up items became the 355 rear wings. During production a rear wing was about 6-7K from FNA. The last few sold for close to 10K from dealers and I heard rumors (no idea if it's true) that the last one FNA had they wanted 12K for.

I already had a OEM Challenge wing on my car from a wrecked Challenge car at FOW so when I bought the final 355 CHallenge kit I sold the spare wing for 8K.

You will always be able to find aftermarket components cheaper but if you want OEM Ferrari parts you will pay out the #$%# to get them.

The 1995 F355 Challenge muffler (quiet one) is next to impossible to find but many people who own 95's want them to keep the car original (some think they might want to make the car street legal). When the 355 was still in production you could get one for $1000-$1500 used. Now everyone who has one wants 3K for them.

Beware what you get yourself into.

Regards,

Jon

 

WOW !!! Porsche Cup Cars are really cool - the world map design on the cup car in post two is absolutely striking!

Carol

 

Yeah, you guys are probably right (looking wistfully at the far shore). A Ferrari race car doesn't make much sense for a poor boy like me. (Kicking a rock while blinking away tears...)

After all, I got the Miata after somebody pointed out that the hood on a Maranello costs $13,000.

Dr "Somewhere over the rainbow" Who

 

Dr.,
I am getting into the cheap end, soon to be buying my first shifter kart. I too am old and used to race motorcycles (Roadrace) and feel that the risk of fast street driving has become less fun with age. So, I agree with your "to the track" assessment of fun.

What the ideal track day car is would be something like a Radical. Way faster than you typical street based car turned racer and about the same price as a loaded 330ci. I cannot afford a 333sp and this is the closest thing for less than 1/10 the cost. Check them out at: http://www.radicalwest.com/
Or you can go to school with them at: http://www.springmountainmotorsports.com/

Just my $.02
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