Jalpa thread | Page 4 | FerrariChat

Jalpa thread

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by SVJTech, Nov 12, 2009.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. SVJTech

    SVJTech Rookie

    Apr 1, 2009
    36
    Western US
    Full Name:
    Jason F.
    >>>

    I would imagine there would be some parts of the Jalpa community that would be interested in how to produce reliable, consistent HP from these machines - just surprised there is so little info on this - unlike most engine designs, finding something like engineering papers (or SAE papers) has been difficult. Yet for the basis of improving the design we need to get all the baselines down first before trying to work with this Italian heat pump.

    Given the response from some simple changes - it seems there can be some considerable output to be had, though material improvements will be needed to accomplish that.
    Mind I'm not contemplating effectively creating a Donovan block for this - still keeping the original base castings - but there are gains to be had with some simple thermo practices applied..

    This might even help the resale value a bit - think of it: "Italian reliability" - should be better than "Triuph-TR6" reliability. Please note: Nothing against the British or Italians here..
     
  2. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    not really my cup of tea but your can always use forced induction

    its an old carb motor so it shouldnt be that difficult to bring out a few more ponies. keeping it together in one piece is another matter. seem like a ton of stock motors have blown up.
     
  3. SVJTech

    SVJTech Rookie

    Apr 1, 2009
    36
    Western US
    Full Name:
    Jason F.
    Himm.. there does seem to be that perception, though other cars have had worse reps. Some of these concerns have been detailed on sites as the jalp.ch - but little is out there on how or why these issues arise. I suppose there isn't much interest in development in an engine that is in a limited number of cars.

    The areas that have been of concern in my quest have been the oil, ignition and cooling systems. After these are managed, further improvement can be realized through the introduction modern techniques and technologies, like advanced and lighter materials.
    Some of the original design was probably due to layout issues in the car at the time - like driving the distributor with a rubber belt on a shaft that also turns the water pump - good as far as making use of the space and limited layout options, but unfortunately also introduces spark timing fluctuation due to dimensional changes in the belt and the additional forces that come into play. Not to mention the possibility of belt tooth slippage and miss-indexing by a technician.

    So there are a few things to work with, Ferrari, Lotus. or Lamborghini.. just have to figure out what all is happening and how to best manage it. The reward is a car that not only sounds incredible, but will last for a drive from one side of the continent to the other…
     
  4. raymondQV

    raymondQV F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2007
    4,009
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Raymond S.
    I never saw the cooling system as an issue, my car ran always at 80 degrees C, in traffic jam raised up to 95 and was immediately cooled down by the fan.
    Driving on the race track is a different story, there the oil radiator is too small and gets too less fresh air, I had 140 degrees C after a few laps.
     
  5. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    raymond

    was your oil cooler in the front or in the back like most of the later cars?

    did you find the stock suspension a little soft on the track and under tired with the 205/225 sizes?

    not a lot of people track there v8 lambos , id be very much obliged if you can share with us your track experiences


    warm regards

    hf
     
  6. raymondQV

    raymondQV F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2007
    4,009
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Raymond S.
    Only the first 70 cars had the oil cooler in the front, mine was #203.

    The suspension was quite soft, I would say rather the rollbars are the easy not the suspension per se.

    The most inadequate piece are the brakes, specially the cooling of them, you can install EBC red or yellow stuff which improves them a lot, but after 5 laps the brakes got that hot that fading begins.
     
  7. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603

    thats what ive gathered on the suspension set up... i wonder if anyone has tried to upgrade on for track use. many people just replace worn struts with inserts from another car that fits.

    most stock brakes back in the 70's/80's leave alot to be desired in hi-powered cars (with the exception of porsches maybe?).

    heres an outfit that does vintage lambo brakes http://www.movit.de/rahmen/lambo.htm

    anyone ever tried a em yet?
     
  8. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    nice

    is that an early front radiator car? it looks to have the early urraco tail lamps.

    i wonder when were the last inner fueler cars without the top binnacle instrument shade

    thnx for posting

    hf
     
  9. nthfinity

    nthfinity F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2005
    7,467
    South East MI
    Full Name:
    Isaac not Issac
    #85 nthfinity, Jan 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  10. raymondQV

    raymondQV F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2007
    4,009
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Raymond S.
    #86 raymondQV, Jan 21, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2010
    Obviously your beuatiful car has no oil radiator in the engine compartment, so have a look at your front spoiler, the gap is not for the fun, that was where they placed the oil cooler... on the 3rd last picture just above the taillight you can see the oil cooler.

    Pictures on my Homepage: http://www.jalpa.ch/Versions/index.html

    BTW: which VIN?
     
  11. nthfinity

    nthfinity F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2005
    7,467
    South East MI
    Full Name:
    Isaac not Issac
    Considering I'm a car guy, I ought to know... I'm just not terribly familiar with the car. It's not mine, and have only seen it once.

    DL12045
     
  12. SVJTech

    SVJTech Rookie

    Apr 1, 2009
    36
    Western US
    Full Name:
    Jason F.

    The brakes went through a couple revisions too.. so I suppose there are differences in braking ability between the cars as well – mine had the vented front and back rotors, but still needed a bit more for track day.

    With my projects, one of the goals is to use consumable parts that are relatively easily to find, and implement. I ended up using 95 BMW euro M3 rotors: 315mm by 28mm. They feature an aluminum *floating* hat with directional vanes in the steel rotor. I also updated the caliper to match the rotors: larger Brembo units that use the same pad as the Volvo R series and a few Mitsubishi’s. The caliper mounts on a billet aluminum adaptor. These are at all four corners with a bias adjuster to adjust as needed. I also updated the master cylinder to match the fluid needs of the calipers – 25mm x 25mm master from the BMW 7 series. The master cylinder bolts up, minding the reservoir clearance on the top needs to be watched when keeping your spare tire up front.

    One additional factor to consider is the additional mass from the rotors – while the aluminum hat does help weight in check, in comparison you will notice the additional mass, as one would with any larger rotor upgrade. I also used lighter rims – forged 17 inch units that are about 18lbs each. The 17inch dia was mostly for ease of finding tires. While the stock rims will still fit on, with about a 1/8 of clearance between the rim and caliper for show days or whatever, they do have quite a bit of aluminum – I don’t remember the specific number, but I think that a complete wheel with tire was about 50 lbs..


    -J
     
  13. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    SVJ

    interesting, you used for of the same calipers for all 4 corners? what bore size are the brembos and what car did they come off of? arent the stock calipers similar to the ones found on the old 911SCs and 7 series? i always wondered if the 911 are straight bolt ons.

    can u post a pic please?

    cool to know a handful of people track there jalpas. id reckon brakes would be the biggest issue due to the high weight of the car.

    cheers
     
  14. Shark Sandwich

    Shark Sandwich Karting

    Jan 22, 2008
    149
    Eastern PA
    Full Name:
    Arthur
  15. raymondQV

    raymondQV F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2007
    4,009
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Raymond S.
    That car is well known, only the lips are missing the rest is original.
     
  16. Shark Sandwich

    Shark Sandwich Karting

    Jan 22, 2008
    149
    Eastern PA
    Full Name:
    Arthur
    #92 Shark Sandwich, Feb 7, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2010

    .... "well known", ... in a good way ? :)

    Art
     
  17. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran

    Feb 23, 2006
    6,852
    Italia
    yes, a good car
     
  18. SVJTech

    SVJTech Rookie

    Apr 1, 2009
    36
    Western US
    Full Name:
    Jason F.
    #94 SVJTech, Feb 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The new ones have 42 /38 mm pistons - these calipers were used on the 2004 Volvo 60R series cars and some Mitsubishi cars.
    We are still dialing in things so I'm sure there will be additional changes in the near future.

    The stock calipers that were on this car - still have them to convert back when needed - appear to be the similar to the 73-74 BMW 2002 tii (turbo) calipers but with a spacer in the middle of the caliper halves, and the front had a 1/8 (about) washer spacer between the caliper and the spindle mount, to slightly space the caliper onto the rotor.

    The stock calipers have 4 pistons in each front and rear caliper.

    911 do not appear to be straight bolt on, but tomorrow I'll measure the spacing in the tabs... I have a set of the S Porsche aluminum calipers on the shelf....

    Attached is a photo of an older setup with the similar style of BMW rotor, but it is with the US model BMW rotor that has a solid steel center.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    if your using the same calipers on both the front and the rears, i assume the balance would be way off and you will need an adjustable bias valve to "kill" the rears. if they where dual MCs rather than tandem it may be easier to change the rear mc to a larger size.

    thanks for the posting the pic...

    keep us in the loop please!

    hf
     
  20. SVJTech

    SVJTech Rookie

    Apr 1, 2009
    36
    Western US
    Full Name:
    Jason F.

    Yes, driver adjustable bias, with a micro-delay actuation for the rears is in the system.

    Another piece implimented is that the rotor thickness is a couple mm under the oem design for that caliper, however we make the pistons out of Ti and a little 'taller' to compensate. This gives more space between the caliper and the pad that is generating the friction. The effect is to have a little more airflow and distance between the caliper and the pad thus lowering the value of the heat sinking into the caliper.
     
  21. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    #97 hyenahf, Feb 8, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
    machining Ti piston is pretty involving? seems like its easier to get custom application disc and alloy hats made up from various vendors. when it comes time for replacement you only have to change out the rotor disc.

    to tackle heat soak, route air towards brakes, use ti pad backing heat shield or shims, change to track pads (love ferrodo DS2500 the DS300 are scary for street use), and of course hi-spec fluid. this is experiences from various non-jalpa cars of course.

    your big rotors should have plenty or thermal capacity for the weight and power of the jalpa. just use a E46 M3 as a rough comparisons which weighs more and has much more power. E46 M3 had really standard low cost calipers but put the money into the rotors. the usa spec ones werent even multi-piece types as i recalled.
     
  22. SVJTech

    SVJTech Rookie

    Apr 1, 2009
    36
    Western US
    Full Name:
    Jason F.
    #98 SVJTech, Feb 8, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
    Machining the Ti pistons here isn't a problem - we have been doing it for some time on other makes and we were able to pull some 'off the shelf'. Originally started as a way to reduce soakback for those who have to run stock calipers for the class they run in due to the sanctioning body. Overall in this case we do it just as an additional perk - things can be run without the modification, but when the heat is really on, every little bit helps. Most of our events here are 20-30 minutes and the Colorado thin air doesn't seem to help much...

    We have had good success with the Performance Friction and Carbotech pads as well..

    On a side note, the original front and rear rotors are the same diameter - (or at least they were on my car!)
     
  23. raymondQV

    raymondQV F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2007
    4,009
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Raymond S.

Share This Page