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Jean Pierre Sarti is real right?!

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Ferrari_lvr, Sep 28, 2006.

  1. Ferrari_lvr

    Ferrari_lvr Formula Junior

    May 28, 2006
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    I know he dies in Grand Prix from flying off the banking at about 190mph and crashes into the trees below and died, but isnt he real? Didnt that really happen? Ive read in places somewhere, I know I have, that its real. But I cant find him on any lists anywhere....anyone?
     
  2. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    Scott
  3. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

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    he is alive and well and posting in the 512/boxer section !
     
  4. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    I thought that was his widow, Janice Pauline...
     
  5. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    J.P. Sarti is purely a fictional character. As for his widow, I believe her maiden name is Newman, as in Janice Pauline Newman. Needless to say, she is also a fictional character as well. Hopefully someone more familiar with the film can verify this for you.
     
  6. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ

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    He became reincarnated as Imperial 183 PUTZ........
     
  7. greg246

    greg246 F1 World Champ
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    now that is funny. Readers may need to refer to the boxer thread for clarification
     
  8. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    Now now... we all know that Senna could not take the pressure, lost control and killed himself!

    there is no need to be bitter about that!
     
  9. Ferrarinw2

    Ferrarinw2 Five Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 7, 2006
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    went to the movies when film came out in '66 I was 8 but already car nut and character was fiction,when you look at race F1 history.
     
  10. AxelBangert

    AxelBangert Rookie

    Nov 23, 2013
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    Sarti = John Surtees
    Barlini = Lorenzo Bandini
    Stoddard = Jim Clark
    Pete Aron = Richie Ginther

    Best regards
    Axel Arnold Bangert - Herzogenrath 2013
     
  11. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Actually, I believe that the character driver names were selected to resemble names of the actual drivers whose helmets they wore, so that distant shots of the real races with the names on the car (as at Brands Hatch) would look like the character names. Thus:

    Sarti = John Surtees
    Barlini = Lorenzo Bandini
    Stoddard = Jackie Stewart
    Aron = Chris Amon

    The problem was that after Surtees left Ferrari at mid-season, Sarti wore Mike Parkes' helmet for the rest of the year, and I don't think that Chris Amon drove any races in 1966 for McLaren, the team whose cars doubled as the Yamuras. (He did in CanAm but not in F1.) In the end, I don't recall any scenes in the final cut of the movie where actual driver names are clearly visible on the cars, so this scheme eventually became a moot point.
     
  12. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    I thought that the Yamuras were Hondas.

    BTW, I don`t know why Honda didn´t allow to use their name in the film (despite being the car of the star) while Ferrari and others did. The same happened in the old Grand Prix Legends videogame. It seems like Honda didn´t want to remember those years.
     
  13. AxelBangert

    AxelBangert Rookie

    Nov 23, 2013
    2
    Stewart has had the accident in 66 and the helmet of Amon - yes that seems to be possible.
    Thus I think you are right:

    Sarti = John Surtees
    Barlini = Lorenzo Bandini
    Stoddard = Jackie Stewart
    Aron = Chris Amon

    Best thanks to you
    Axel Arnold Bangert - Herzogenrath 2013
     
  14. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2006
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    #14 Crawler, Nov 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2013
    Yes, in the plot, the Yamuras were a fictional Japanese team, so the similarity with Honda was apparent. However, what Gatorarri is saying is that for filming purposes, they were made to physically resemble the McLarens, as Honda skipped all but the last couple of races that '66 season in order to develop their new car. It's complicated, and was made more so at the time due to the fact that McLaren, as a struggling new team, was unable to field a single car for Bruce in most of the races, let alone a second one for Amon, who ended up in a Cooper Maserati on a race-by-race basis. Frankenheimer and his continuity people certainly had their work cut out for them.

    Here is a list of the races that Bruce McLaren entered in 1966.

    Monaco, powered by 3-liter Ford V8* (not Cosworth, which didn't appear until '67). Retired.
    Great Britain, powered by Serenissima V8, finished 6th
    USA, Ford V8. Finished 5th
    Mexico, Ford V8. Retired

    *These were de-stroked Indianapolis-spec units.

    As an F1 team, McLaren did not start to come on strong until 1968, when they got Cosworth V8s for the first time. Honda struggled with a severely overweight car until late in '67, when they ditched their chassis for a completely new one designed by Lola. (The car was dubbed "Hondola" by some in the press, and Surtees drove it to victory at Monza in '67.) In mid '68, again losing their way, they came up with a radical, very light weight air-cooled machine that killed Jo Schlesser in its first outing after Surtees refused to race it. So, it's likely that Honda would rather forget those years!

    P.S. I don't actually know all of this stuff (though I am old enough to remember some of it), but I have a very good library at home.
     
  15. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
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    #15 macca, Nov 28, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
    Oddly McLaren as a team had used the green-on-white colours for the 1965-66 Tasman Series but were then due to use a new scheme for F1 in 1966 which had been designed for them, using green and dark yellow areas on white; probably Frankenheimer asked/paid them to stay mostly white to simulate a Japanese team.

    Chris Amon only did one GP, at Rheims, in a Cooper but he tried to qualify at Monza in a 2-litre Brabham-BRM (belonging to MGM and previously faked-up as a Ferrari) painted as a Yamura; he DNQd so MGM paid for Spence's Lotus-BRM to be repainted white and renumbered for the race.

    Sarti's crash-helmet changes colour during the fictional French GP at Clermont Ferrand, from the Amon scheme but with the colours reversed, to the Parkes colours.

    MGM had intended to use Lotus as one of their featured teams, but Chapman was uncooperative about showing Jim Russell the design of the 1966 car to enable him to build fakes for MGM, so they switched to BRM. The Stoddard character was more like Clark, the bad treatment of Aron as the no. 2 driver was more like what Lotus used to do, and the Jeff Jordan character with his flat cap and short temper was definitely more like Chapman.

    Sarti's crash was very similar to that of Jean Behra at Avus in 1959 where he went off the top of the banking fatally; most of the incidents in Grand Prix had an original model somewhere/when.

    Paul M
     
  16. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Here's what Wikipedia says about Chris Amon's 1966 F1 season:

    "During 1966 Amon continued to race for McLaren in CanAm. He was intended to drive the second McLaren M2B but difficulties with engine supply meant that the team never made the intended expansion to two cars. (James Garner's character Pete Aron's helmet and car livery in the film Grand Prix were modelled on Amon driving a McLaren, which caused the movie makers to have to encourage other cars to be painted in the 'Yamura' colours and other drivers (Bruce McLaren included) to wear Amon-style helmets.)

    However, an opportunity arose to drive for the Cooper F1 team after Richie Ginther left them for Honda. Amon drove for Cooper at the French GP and was scheduled to drive for them for the rest of the season, until the more successful John Surtees left Scuderia Ferrari to join Cooper and Amon found himself dropped."

    It is true that the Stoddard/Jordan relationship strongly resembled the Clark/Chapman relationship, but of course, the car is a BRM and Stoddard's helmet mimicked Stewart's if not actually being identical. Since Stoddard is depicted as an Englishman, presumably he came from the border country near Scotland and had Scottish blood??

    I'm not sure why Chapman would have objected to showing Jim Russell the 1966 Lotus, since for most of the season they used the 1965 type 33s anyway (some of which were used in the film to stand in for other teams' cars) and the eventual type 43, designed for the BRM H16 engine, was not particularly remarkable or innovative. If the type 49 was the car that Chapman wanted to keep secret, that I could understand, but I don't believe it actually existed until late in the year.
     
  17. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Rookie

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    #17 Crawler, Dec 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks for the clarification on the Amon / Cooper relationship in '66. To veer even further off-topic (such as it was), I believe that the Maserati V12 used by Cooper was the one that was designed in the mid-fifties to replace the straight six in the 250F. Although it was ready in '57, it was never used as intended in a GP as Fangio preferred the six and Maserati bowed out of F1 at the end of the year. When Cooper needed an engine for the new formula in '66, it was easily enlarged from 2.5 to 3 liters, but was obsolescent after nine years and very heavy compared to the competition.

    By the way, for you history buffs, there's a brand new book out about Chris Amon's 1967 season with Ferrari. I just finished it the other day and recommend it highly. It's published by David Bull (usual disclaimers).
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  18. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Rookie

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    #18 Crawler, Dec 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2013
    I think it was just a case of Chapman being difficult and slightly paranoid, traits for which he was well known. All that Frankenheimer and Russell were interested in was the car's outward appearance, and if design secrets were a legitimate concern, it would seem that these could have been covered by a simple non-disclosure agreement.
     
  19. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    That's right. In between, it was used in some of the "Birdcage" Maserati sports cars. It was competitive in 1966, probably not being any worse than the 24-valve Ferrari, but by 1967 its days were past and Cooper disappeared after the 1968 season.
     
  20. ChalStrad

    ChalStrad Formula 3

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    Not quite!!
    Starting played by Yves Montand was Surtees. His girlfriend was played by Eva Marie Saint. Yes a car did crash over the banking it real life. It was Wolfgang Von Trips who was killed.

    Stoddard was Jackie Stewart and Pete Aron was Chris Amon

    Still the greatest motor racing movie ever made....
     
  21. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Rookie

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    Just to be clear, Von Trips did not crash on the banking. His car made contact with Jim Clark's Lotus entering the Vedano bend and went into the crowd, killing him and fourteen spectators.
     
  22. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Rookie

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    Yes, Surtees did drive the Cooper Maserati to victory in the last race of the season in Mexico. Rodriguez won the first race of the '67 season at Kyalami, but I think that was due to very heavy attrition.
     
  23. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    673
    My suspicion has always been that either Chapman was hoping to get money out of MGM for letting his team be portrayed, or alternatively that he had a contract with Warner Bros. for the McQueen film that in the end was cancelled (until 1970 when he started 'Le Mans').

    Amon drove the third Cooper at Reims (replacing Ginther who'd done the first two GPs before going to Japan to test the Honda) after Surtees joined the team. After that, as well as driving for Ford at Le Mans and McLaren in Can-Am and British sports car races he was quite busy as a regular stand-in driver filming GP - he and Phil Hill drove the GT40 camera car.

    I don't know if Stoddard was meant to be Anglo-Scottish or whether the Stewart tartan band on his helmet was just quietly ignored for film-making purposes, but I do know that the Stoddard family home that appeared in the film is actually about 20 miles south of Brands Hatch in south-east England.

    The great thing Well, one of them) about 'GP' is that the characters were all properly drawn and not just copies of real drivers, wives, etc. Only Manetta and Jordan had close original models in Ferrari and Chapman.

    Paul M
     
  24. tomkatf

    tomkatf Formula 3
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    As described by Clark:

    "Von Trips and I were racing along the straightaway and were nearing one of the banked curves, the one on the southern end. We were about 100 metres from the beginning of the curve. Von Trips was running close to the inside of the track. I was closely following him, keeping near the outside. At one point Von Trips shifted sideways so that my front wheels collided with his back wheels. It was the fatal moment. Von Trips' car spun twice and went into the guardrail along the inside of the track. Then it bounced back, struck my own car and bounced down into the crowd."

    T
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP69nWsGtpY]Wolfgang von Trip's Fatal Crash at Monza (GRAPHIC) - YouTube[/ame]

    As an aside, Jean Behra died in a similar accident after going off the banking at the Avus circuit in Berlin and fracturing his skull on a flagpole...

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fWS1zyk4Dk]Jean Behra Fatal Accident - YouTube[/ame]
     
  25. spirot

    spirot F1 Veteran
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    As mentioned elswhere here -this is not correct about the accident.

    Trips was not killed on the banking - but entry to ....

    the Movie Grand Prix takes the banking accident from Alberto Ascari's accident back in the late 50's... most of the dialouge and scenes are taken from the book "the Cruel Sport" by Richard Daly which was written by a non F-1 journo back in the day. it focuses mostly on several drivers who were racing the the love of the sport - macho guys... Phill Hill, Pedro Rodriguez, Maurice Trintagnant, Ascari, Tony Brooks... he interviewed a lot of them back in the day - and was kind of tight with de Portago before he got killed.

    Even some of the lines used in the movie are directly pulled from the book- what Sarti says to Eve Marie Saint in the Hugo's garage in Monaco is directly from the book...word for word.
    Frankenhimer used it as the basis of the movie.

    but the banking at Monza was last used for an actual race in 1969 for sports cars ... and for F-1 in 1960... Trips incident finished it off.

    for the movie they did use the banking... with Phill Hill driving the ford GT40 camera car at over 120 Mph.

    JP Sarti is totally fictional caracter - built up on Fangio, Trintiangant, and Jean Berha... with a bit of dePortago in for good measure.

    Stoddard is a mix of Stewart, Hill and Clark - the stiff upper lip englishman.

    Aaron is - Phil Hill - Richy Ginther and Maston Gregory & little Innes Ireland

    Barlini - is Hawthorne & dePortago mixed together - big girl chasers and drinkers/ party guys...
    I agree it is THE Racing movie of all time! wish Rush could be said to be better - but sadly no.
     

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