July 16-18: Learn car control... and feel your Ferrari at the edge... | FerrariChat

July 16-18: Learn car control... and feel your Ferrari at the edge...

Discussion in 'Texas' started by Brian C. Stradale, Jun 24, 2004.

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  1. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
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    Dallas, TX, USA
    I'm writing to see if I can fill a day or two of this event with some Ferraris and/or FerrariChatters. At my constant nagging ;), the host of this event has moved it from its typical Mineral Wells home, to a much better surface... I haven't gone to check it out yet, but will if you guys show some interest in going.

    What is it? Its the absolute best way to:
    • Safely get a feel for your Ferrari (etc) at the limit.
    • To improve your car control skills.
    • To learn how to "look ahead"... to not just navigate a turn or obstacle, but to do so setting up for the next turn or obstacle.
    • To get started into autocross or track driving.
    • For experienced track drivers, to take their car control skills up a notch in a much safer environment than experimenting at the track.
    • For someone with a new car, to quickly find the car's handling limits and characteristics.

    If you've ever thought about doing some of these driving events you hear about, but weren't sure how to get started. This is it... not the only way to get started... but the best way!

    Details? Each "phase" has a standard course that has been carefully crafted to teach certain things particularly well. They have multiple timers set up, so that you get multiple segment times from each run... and see how one effects the other. However, you generally don't need the times except as general confirmation... you can feel the improvements with ease.

    There is very little "talk time"... the learning is done on-course... in-car... you and one of several national-champion autocrossers as your instructor. These guys' car control abilities are humbling. They can get into each student's car and find speed you did not know was there... and they're taking it easy in the student's cars! I've been wowed by runs even when they're pointing out the window with one hand to show me what they're looking at.

    But the best thing is that once you get a feel for how the car can and should behave... and once you learn where to be focused... you can do it, too! No need to master heel-and-toe or such complexities... you can easily just run the whole course in 2nd gear to avoid worrying about shifting.

    Unlike an autocross where you may get 3-5 runs... or even a small-club autocross where you might get as many as 10 runs... you'll get 25-35 runs (depending upon which "phase"). And with the awesome instruction, you will learn probably 20x as much vs. a day of autocross. In one day, you can make more progress than a year's worth of autocrosses with 2 clubs! In fact, many weekend autocrossers never really learn as much as you will learn in Phase 1 of this school!

    The school? Evolution Performance Driving School ( http://autocross.com/evolution ). They travel the country putting on these schools. The SCCA Solo2 and ProSolo National Championships are dominated by Evolution graduates.

    Only for beginners? Not at all. I've taken Phase 1 twice, Phase 2 three times, and Phase 3 once. The Phase 1 course is small to keep speeds down and eliminate shifting worries... but it has all the key elements that you need to navigate. Thus, it is a tremendous way to refine all those skills. Further, its a great way to really find the limits of your car and to experiment with the changes in those limits when you shift the weight differently.

    Thus, every time I get a new car, I try to join the next Evolution school available so that I can quickly learn the real handling limits. And get some practice and feel for keeping it there. Not to mention the practice looking ahead, which is critical in autocross, valuable on track, and may save your life some day on the street.

    Where and when? It will be held at the Grayson County Airport in Sherman, TX (north of Dallas on US75). The site has both concrete and asphalt areas... so, if you take more than one day, you might get to learn the differences between the two surfaces as well.

    They will hold two phases each day. You can join for one, two, or three.
    They will have a Phase1 on asphalt and a Dial-In on concrete on Friday July 16th.
    They will have a Phase 1 on asphalt and a Phase 2 on concrete on Saturday July 17th.
    They will have a Phase 2 and a Challenge school on concrete on Sunday July 18th.

    I plan to attend the 17th and the 18th for sure... not sure yet on the 16th.

    Costs? Way cheap for a year's worth of autocross. To take one phase that weekend, its a mere $200. Each additional phase that weekend is only $160.


    Soooo, anyone interested in joining me and my Stradale for some major car fun??? I need some feedback if there is interest... I'll check out the lot and I need to get feedback to the host to make sure he locks down the dates... they need a min of 5 for each school, I think.
     
  2. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    I did the Evolution Phase 1 school up in Kansas a few years ago. I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend it for experienced autocrossers. Not sure I would recommend it for someone that hasn't done at least a few autocrosses. If you want to do this, then there are AX's going on every weekend in Dallas and you can get a few in. Part that helped me the most is you run 5-10 laps on an AX course with a variety of skills needed. You then let an X national champion autocrosser take 3-4 laps in your car. You can then compare the 5-10 timed segments of the run to see where you're loosing the most time.

    The car can take it, but you will go through a set of tires in a day.
     
  3. WJHMH

    WJHMH Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I want to go this but I'll need to do more work to my car, also an extra set of tires would be good to have.
     
  4. TigerAce

    TigerAce Formula 3

    May 29, 2003
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    Yoshi Ace
    Brian, I am very much interested!

    What do I need to be prepared on this? Do I need get new tires & service after this? Sorry this will be my first time, so forgive me for stupid questions if they are.

    I want to learn how to drive in racing manner, but hasn't done so.

    Rob,
    Before 7/16,17, or 18th, where can I get the feel for things like this in Dallas? Would you advise?

    BTW, I changed 355. It's now '99 355F1 Berlinetta. F convertible just didn't fit my life well, and got too much attention. It's spooky when a stranger come asking me about my car when I am in the store, and not even driving the car then! (she said she saw me few time driving the car) In Plano, one guy followed me to the gas station, and asked me how much, where do I live, what I do for living, etc... (similar thing happened few times, too, not counting people challenging me to race......) I must look easy prey...
     
  5. WJHMH

    WJHMH Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yoshi, sorry to hear about that but I think that going to happen with any type of new Ferrari. It's something that just cannot be avoided. I had some kids follow me about a month ago home also inquiring about my Integra, I thought I was going to get robbed. Yea, it's very creepy.
     
  6. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Yoshi, I'm not sure what Brian recommends, but I recommend just doing a Driver Education event at the track for Ferrari owners looking to become a better driver. I know AX made me a better track driver, but driving on the track is more practical to street driving with a Ferrari. The Ferrari is better suited for track too.
     
  7. jimpo1

    jimpo1 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 30, 2001
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    Damn Yoshi, you bought my car!!! Now you have to come take me to lunch so I can see what it can do.

    Are you trying to be like Frances, silver coupe w/ F1? :D
     
  8. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    I did an Evolution school very first thing... no autox experience... no track experience. Other than the fact that I had to ask what it meant to "work a corner", I see no disadvantage in doing this as a first event.

    HOWEVER, getting one autox in before the school will help you get a little extra out of the course. And, of course, an experienced autocrosser will get yet different things out of the course. That's why I tend to take an Evolution course or two every year or two.


    I agree completely with the other Rob said, except maybe this... depends a lot upon the tires and the surface. If you have a typical car with too little camber and you're running street tires on concrete... tires will be toast after one day. If you're running a well-suspended sportscar with max performance tires on asphalt, you could do four of the schools on one set of tires (at least).

    With that said, if you make the common newbie mistake of pushing too hard, causing a lot of understeer and tire scrub, you'll toast your fronts no matter what tire/surface you're on.
     
  9. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Dude, don't worry about your car. The key things you learn from the course are independent of the car. Of course, its nice if you are in your final car setup since you'll get a lot of practice with that setup. But, if this is your first time with these schools, there's sooo much you'll learn in any car.
     
  10. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Don't go in with nearly finished tires... you might cord them before the end of the school. If, for example, you decide to do Phase 1 on Sat and Phase 2 on Sunday (both on asphalt), and you have 1/2 your tread left on your current tires, I'd advise ordering your next set from Tire Rack, delivered to your local install place that's open late Saturday. That way, if you do use up your tires on the first day, you can get them swapped.

    If you do order tires for this, it would be a good time to try out some max performance tires... such tires will actually hold up better to this kind of wear than normal performance street tires.


    BMWCCA has an autocross this Saturday, June 24th, at Mineral Wells.
    BMWCCA will have another autocross July 11th, at Mineral Wells.
    Equippe Rapide will be running an autocross July 11th at Pennington Field (Bedford).

    Normally PCA would be having one in that period... but they are hosting the Porsche Parade (annual event) here in Fort Worth next month... so they are busy.

    With a "new" Ferrari, unless the paint is already somewhat abused, I'd avoid Mineral Wells. Pennington is a nice clean concrete parking lot... smaller area so the courses are a bit shorter and slower... so its a great first autocross.


    Wow, you go thru Ferraris quick! ;) Can't wait to see it.
     
  11. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    I recommend both. Track events aren't the best place to find the traction limits and learn car control... and many of the "look ahead" techniques taught very well in Evolution schools are taught very little in DEs.

    But Rob is correct that a Ferrari is a much better track car than an autox car. However, to me street driving is far more like autox than track. In track, you learn the "correct" line and then perfect getting every last bit out of that line (and then find the "advanced" line and repeat ;) ). In autox, you are faced with a new course that you must drive immediately... you learn to drive more by looking ahead and computing rather than memorizing (so to speak). On the street, its a relatively tight course that's ever-moving and changing due to traffic and obstacles. The looking ahead and understanding of car control and your ultimate limits can result in much more effective navigation in emergency situations. JMHO.
     
  12. Speed Racerette

    Speed Racerette Formula 3

    May 24, 2004
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    "Wow, you go thru Ferraris quick! Can't wait to see it."


    Actually, in a round about way, Brian had a hand in Yoshi's new car....it was after a day of goofing off and driving around in my car (your former car!) that we buzzed on by the Lambo dealer and ......well, the rest is history. :)
     
  13. TigerAce

    TigerAce Formula 3

    May 29, 2003
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    Yoshi Ace
    thank you very much Brian & Rob.

    Jim & Frances, you wanna do this? I need someone to compete since Will is much experienced, and Rob & Brian is out of my league. I'm ready to go even this weekend since my golf was cancelled on Saturday! (it suppose to rain, and we didn't want to go White Bluff to take chance)

    Does driving a cart help?

    I'll just stop by Sam's tomorrow & pick up few sets of tires! (I don't know what is Tire Rack. I only bought tires twice in my life, once at Sears & another at NTW Tires)
     
  14. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Does Sam's carry good tires for a Ferrari??

    TireRack is the way to buy tires for anything that's not mainstream.

    You buy at www.tirerack.com; then you can have them delivered to your house OR to the installer of your choice. I take my cheap cars to Firestone; I take my Ferrari to FoD or Nine-Eleven Enterprises. FoD actually orders tires via TireRack! Eventually, almost the whole world will buy their tires through TireRack!

    If your Ferrari will see rain, I highly recommend the Bridgestone S-O3... high performance in the dry and amazing stick in the wet.

    A great "max performance" tire is the Kumho Ecsta MX... that's what I put on Frances' car (and I assume are still on there). Kumho tires are often half the price of the big name brands... yet they're some of the best performing tires on the market.

    If someday you start doing driving events regularly, you can get like me and start driving R-compounds on the street. They only last about 4000 street miles... but they'll last longer under track/autox usage... and they're cheaper per tire, so it works out fairly well. Before I put it up for sale, I was running Kumho ECSTA V700 tires on Frances' car.
     
  15. WJHMH

    WJHMH Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Discount Tire has a warehouse in North Grand Prairie, set up an account from your business & purchase them direct. Yoshi, I'm still working on my my skills as for track events & autocross. I can still learn alot from Rob & Brian. All I can say is get as much track time as you can, even karting events can help.
     
  16. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Ok, just so I'm clear on this:

    When it says that there's a Phase 1 and Phase 2 on Saturday, that means that there are two independent full-day classes being run that just happen to be in the same area, correct? Not that Phase 1 is a half-day, and Phase 2 is a half-day and they're running back to back.
     
  17. Speed Racerette

    Speed Racerette Formula 3

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    Yoshi-

    Count me in for either Friday or Saturday. I'd prefer Friday if that works with your schedule.

    BTW, if NTB carries the same tire you are interested in buying at the tire rack, they will match the price and give you an additional 5 or 10% off the price.

    Frances
     
  18. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Tillman, if it's like the one I did in my younger years, each Phase is a full day. Both are running at the same time. Then they will also do a Phase 2 on Sunday, so if you complete Phase 1 on Saturday, you can do the Phase 2 on Sunday.

    The courses they use are just short 25-35 second runs. Mineral Wells is so big they could probably have 4-6 of these courses. The Phase 1 I did we got about 40-50 runs in. The typical autocross day you get 4 runs of a 30-70 second course. That's one reason I don't autocross much anymore, doing a DE you'll typically get 60-120 minutes a day.
     
  19. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I love TireRack.com, but then I found out Discount Tire will match all prices plus shipping. DT usually has the tires I need in stock.

    Brian, can TireRack.com shave tires? I know DT can't.
     
  20. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    I could go on Friday the 16th. You're all going to spank my poor 328 though :)

    One other thing, there's no mention of required safety gear in the application nor on the Phase 1 description. I assume a motorcycle helmet will suffice?
     
  21. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    darn, I'd love to go, but lack of tires here.
     
  22. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Yes, that's all you need. Might be M2000 these days. Otherwise you can prepare your car there, they just inspect to make sure no loose items, battery secure, wheels secure, brakes work, and throttle return works.
     
  23. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Correct. They'll set up two independent courses next to each other.

    If you want to do both Phase 1 and Phase 2, that's two one-day courses... either Friday + Saturday, Saturday + Sunday, or Friday + Sunday.
     
  24. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Or Friday AND Saturday? ;) I'll be doing Phase 2 on Saturday... so, if you guys do Phase 1 on Friday and Phase 2 on Saturday, then we can be in the same class Saturday. If you guys only do Phase 1 on Friday, then I'll definitely show up on Friday in addition to Sat + Sun... (I definitely want to do the Challenge School sunday, since I haven't done that one before.) However, I'll be getting in way late Thursday, so not sure I'll make it out early enough Friday to be *in* a class.
     
  25. Speed Racerette

    Speed Racerette Formula 3

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    good point re: safety gear. I don't have any (does a skateboarding helmet count???)and boy, you guys are going to need as much safety equipment as you can pile on when I drive!
     

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