just a "lowly" 250 PF coupe..... | FerrariChat
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just a "lowly" 250 PF coupe.....

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by paulvv, Apr 9, 2006.

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  1. paulvv

    paulvv Rookie

    Feb 20, 2006
    40
    #1 paulvv, Apr 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Fellow Ferraristi,

    Herewith a few pictures of my "lowly" 1959 250 PF Coupe for your amusement...... This car is an original "black plate California car." I bought this car in April/May 2003 from the "King of the toasted ponies" ....AKA now the "Avocado Mogul" :) .......

    The "King of the toasted ponies", after acquiring this car, was in the process of scattering the parts to the winds..... Although parting out a seemingly good restoration project may be abhorrent to some, the economics at the time (and maybe even now) don't add up in most cases restoring a PF coupe. Many other significant Ferraris have benefited from scavenging parts off PF coupes. The "King of the toasted ponies" provides a service to the Ferrari community, although some may think of him as the modern day equivalent of a "grave robber."....In my case, I intend to keep this car as a PF coupe, and someday enjoy driving this "lowly, front engined Ferrari V12 coupe".

    I intend to re-assemble this car as a "driver". Essentially it is still complete, non wrecked, straight non-rusted excellent body, with some parts separated from the car (and still owed to me by the Avocado Mogul.)

    The neighborhood cat knows a good motor when he sees it. Dan...the previous owner (1972-2003) was a noted Honda race mechanic. As with many of us, his intention was to restore. He started the process. He rebuilt the motor, transmission, and carburetors. The car's chrome was done and is ready to go back on after a re-paint. I asked the former owner "why after all these years, he sold it?" He just got busy with his motorcycle business and that when he was ready, he would just go out and "buy the best darn PF coupe there is...." Unfortunately so many PF coupes have been used as basis for clones or parts donor, there are not that many left.

    I am starting the dissassembly process, and hopefully soon the missing parts will be reunited so that I can continue the restoration.


    Anyway....hope you were amused.....and from time to time...I will post my progress.

    Best Regards

    Paul Vasquez

    1958 250 PF coupe inside plug (with missing parts....saga TBD)...
    1960 250 PF coupe outside plug ("con motore competizione")

    and a whole bunch of other non-Ferrari cars......
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  2. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

    Jun 24, 2004
    10,117
    The Netherlands
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    Marnix
    #2 GTE, Apr 9, 2006
    Seems like you've got your work cut out for you, but PF Coupe's are worth it!
     
  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #3 Napolis, Apr 9, 2006
    Very glad you're putting her back together!
     
  4. JaguarMike

    JaguarMike Rookie

    Apr 7, 2006
    7
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Full Name:
    Mike Spoelker
    #4 JaguarMike, Apr 9, 2006
    Paul,

    Do either of your 250's use the Lucas distributors?

    Thanks,

    Mike
     
  5. Ed_Long

    Ed_Long Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    686
    Salem, Oregon USA
    Full Name:
    Ed Long
    #5 Ed_Long, Apr 9, 2006
    Paul:
    Welcome to the 250 PF coupe club. I am very glad to learn that another PF coupe will be saved. What are the serial numbers on these old girls? I have a series 2, outside plug, disc brakes, electric overdrive model, s.n. 1747, born in March, 1960. So, it may be a close relative of your 1960. I would be quite glad to help reassembling your cars with photos of my car or references to my library of manuals. I have assisted a few others in this regard. The value of these cars has risen steadily over the last couple of years, so I doubt that you will be wasting your money on restoration.
    Ed
     
  6. paulvv

    paulvv Rookie

    Feb 20, 2006
    40
    #6 paulvv, Apr 9, 2006

    Hello Mike,

    No....both of my Coupes use Marelli distributors.

    1960 outside plug uses (2) Marelli 85 A's
    1959 inside plug uses (2) "ST. 207 DTEM - A" Marellis, (earlier 85s?)

    I am aware that some Ferraris were equipped with the Lucas distributors.

    It does sound ironic, that Ferrari chose to use "prince of darkness" Lucas for a critical ignition part.....but it must have been "good enough".....

    Best Regards

    Paul

    PS. I am an owner of many other Lucas equipped autos..... and I have had my share Lucas electrics "adventures"..........
     
  7. paulvv

    paulvv Rookie

    Feb 20, 2006
    40
    #7 paulvv, Apr 9, 2006
    Hello Ed,

    Thanks for the kind offer! I guess it will be hard to continue to be a "lurker".....now that I have opened the doors...I was hoping to stay anonymous until the cars were done.....but perhaps with more "spotlights" I will get going on these cars.....they have been languishing way too long...

    My 1960 is 1743 (Finished March 17, 1960). California car.....outside plug, overdrive, disc, with "con competizione motore" as noted in the ORIGINAL FACTORY build sheet(yes, original build sheet....long story but the original sheet was kept by Hollywood Sports Cars...and the copies sent back to factory!) Bought new by "Willy Peter Daetwyler" (Swiss Hill Climb Champion).....

    My 1959 is 1341. California car(?).....inside plug, overdrive, drum originally (disc now).... I worked with the owner's younger brother for years, and knew of the car. I never thought he would sell....... Tom S. business is to find and chase these "lost" cars..I bought it from Tom.......Not much other information....but essentially a great original car to restore, especially since the drive train is ready to install..... Now if could gently pry the remaining parts from my good buddy, but very "busy" :) Tom S., I would have a great year......

    My passion for automobiles, unfortunately has always exceeded my finances.... sounds familiar?


    Best Regards

    Paul
     
  8. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
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    Russ Turner
    #8 snj5, Apr 9, 2006
    Very very nice!
    Will look forward to your progress!!
     
  9. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
    3,080
    San Francisco Area
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    John Vardanian
    #9 John Vardanian, Apr 9, 2006
    Hi Paul,

    Welcome on board. My PF coupe must be a close relative of your 1341GT. Mine is 1381GT, ligth greenish gray.

    Incidentally, what is that added fixture next to the coils in one of your photos (with the Ferrari logo stamping)?

    john
     
  10. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 5, 2002
    26,129
    Portland, Oregon
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    Don
    #10 donv, Apr 9, 2006
    Are you restoring both cars? Or is one already running? Or a parts car?

    Either way, looks like a great project!
     
  11. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 1, 2004
    1,869
    Wolfeboro NH
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    Thomas E Shaughnessy
    #11 shaughnessy, Apr 9, 2006

    It is a radio noise suppressor.
     
  12. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
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    John Vardanian
    #12 John Vardanian, Apr 9, 2006
    Thanks. That's what I guessed.
     
  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    24,860
    #13 Marcel Massini, Apr 10, 2006
    Paul:
    1. Willy Peter Daetwyler owned two, not one, 250 GT PF Coupés, the other one was S/N 1383 GT.

    2. Build sheets: The "original" build sheets which you may have must be the AMERICAN build sheets, not the genuine Italian factory ones. One should know that Chinetti very often issued HIS OWN build sheets, usually in both languages Italian and American (English) and the secretary in Maranello just typed (copied) what she found on the real original (Italian only) build sheets. That's why build sheets exist in two languages. I have a large collection of build sheets and in some cases I own two different sets for the same car/same serial number, one the Italian only version, the other being the Italian AND American language version (Chinetti version). Certain details on the U.S. build sheets were not noted - compared to the real Italian ones, probably because Chinetti didn't want those details on his American build sheets. I do have a good xerox copy of the build sheets for 1743 GT and they are both languages Italian-American. I think it is therefore fair to assume that the real build sheet is the Italian only one and most probably remains at the factory.

    3. The xerox copies of the 1743 GT build sheets I have show M. Daetwyler and Ferrari California, both handwritten.

    4. Hilary Raab in his softbound serial number book gives the destination for 1743 GT as "Francia" (France).

    5. The handwritten factory listing of which I own a copy shows for 1743 GT the first owner "Willy Peter Daetwyler and Los Angeles".

    6. 1383 GT was two-tone painted originally, 1743 GT was not two-tone painted.

    7. Willy-Peter Daetwyler was a very wealthy Swiss race driver in the 1950s and owner of a large transportation/Import-Export company in Zurich, Switzerland. He died, aged 82, on 17 January 2001, in his home in Monte Carlo. He had been Swiss champion as well as 1957 European hillclimb champion. He was actively racing between 1948 and 1957.

    Marcel Massini
     
  14. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    929
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    George
    #14 ggjjr, Apr 10, 2006
    Marcel,
    you are a treat!

    George
     
  15. paulvv

    paulvv Rookie

    Feb 20, 2006
    40
    #15 paulvv, Apr 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

    Hello Marcel,

    Thank you for your clarification on the 1743 build sheet. Handwritten is Mr. Daetwyler's name "Cliente". And I have to thank you for deciphering "Ferrari California".......I wondered what it was since I obtained this build sheet....!


    Best Regards

    Paul
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  16. Yquem

    Yquem Formula 3

    Dec 2, 2003
    1,404
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    JR
    #16 Yquem, Apr 10, 2006
    Fantastic info here! Love it.
    PF's are seriously going up in the market these days. Look after 5-10 years...
     
  17. Ed_Long

    Ed_Long Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    686
    Salem, Oregon USA
    Full Name:
    Ed Long
    #17 Ed_Long, Apr 10, 2006
    Paul and Marcel:
    Your 1743 was completed 6 days before my 1747, completed March 23, 1960. My car was sold to me with what I have presumed for 30 years was a factory original build sheet. But, it is an eight-page foldout sheet, not the usual six page format. The backside has only the front page panel with serial number (matricola), engine type, etc with the Ferrari logo in the upper right hand corner. The three other backside sheets are for "revisioni e aggiornamenti", which I assume is "revisions and notes?" The four frontside sheets are all in Italian with no translations and seem to be complete, covering engine, gearbox, rearend, brakes, electrics, induction, etc. The bottom of the last sheet says "inviato in carrozzeria il" with a date of 9/1/60, or January 9, 1960. I assume this is the date the chassis was sent to PininFarina. Then it says, "finito il" and shows the date o 23/3/60, March 23, 1960 when it was completed. The last entry is for "Il capo reparto" and signed with a typed name of Franchini, who I assume signed off that the car was ready for sale.

    Paul: Does your build sheet look the same?

    Marcel: Is it likely from the factory? There is no record that this car went thru Chinetti. I bought the build sheet from the factory in about 1980 along with a similar looking sheet for the Boano, each for $5 US.

    Ed
     
  18. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    24,860
    #18 Marcel Massini, Apr 11, 2006
    Ed
    Yes, I think it is from the factory. Especially if it is ONLY in Italian, without English/American.
    "Il Capo Reparto" is the foreman, in this case it was Mr. Amos Franchini, a long time worker at the factory.
    Question: Does the engine page (in the center of the engine page on the right side) show two names of the mechanics? Which ones? Perhaps "Guerzoni" and "Poppi" or "Baldi"?
    Over the years the factory used different versions of build sheets, six and eight pages plus for the comp cars in the 60s many handwritten pages and then for the 512 BB LMs about 30 or more pages (per car).

    For the cars we discuss here the build sheets were usually - but apparently not always - six pages as follows:

    Page 1: Cover page with chassis, engine and gearbox numbers and Ferrari logo on top right
    Page 2: Engine assembly page
    Page 3: Engine dyno test sheet (often missing in xerox copies or partially blanked off)
    Page 4: Gearbox (Cambio) and Rear Axle (Ponte) assembly sheet
    Page 5: Chassis frame (Autotelaio) page
    Page 6: Revisioni e Aggorniamenti (Overhauling and Modifications) page

    Marcel Massini
     
  19. Ed_Long

    Ed_Long Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    686
    Salem, Oregon USA
    Full Name:
    Ed Long
    #19 Ed_Long, Apr 11, 2006
    Marcel:
    Thank you very much for the new info on these things. I apologize to Paul for drawing attention away from his project car. However, I hope you are as interested in learning more about these build sheets as I am.

    To answer Marcel: the name of Guerzoni appears in the space for "Montatori". My sheet is formatted as you described, but over the space of 8 pages. There are 3 sheets for Revisioni e Aggomiamenti, all blank, nothing filled in.

    Best regards,
    Ed
     
  20. paulvv

    paulvv Rookie

    Feb 20, 2006
    40
    #20 paulvv, Apr 12, 2006
    Hello Ed and fellow Ferraristi...

    As we can see....even the "lowly PF coupe".....is part of the rich Ferrari lineage.....

    Thanks for the additional information...and I will be posting more pictures of my progress.

    Thanks for all the information and encouragement

    Best Regards

    Paul Vasquez
     
  21. RMV

    RMV F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    7,372
    #21 RMV, Apr 13, 2006
    This is what I like to see... another 250PF coupe thread! :)

    Thank you for sharing. The PF Coupe is one of the prettiest 250s (and Ferraris in general), IMHO. All the best with your cars!
     
  22. Ed_Long

    Ed_Long Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    686
    Salem, Oregon USA
    Full Name:
    Ed Long
    #22 Ed_Long, Apr 13, 2006
    Paul:
    According to the Gerald Roush's Ferrari Market Newsletter vol 28, no 1, 11 Jan 2003, s.n. 1743 was painted grigio argento Max Meyer 16003, which I am guessing is some form of dark gray (grigio) and the interior was Connolly rosso (red?) 3171. My car completed 6 days later was painted grigio scuro, which I would describe as gun metal gray and the interior is a silvery light blue. The photo that you attached makes it look like the car is now black or is it a very dark gray?

    In that photo there appears to be a side light on the B pillar behind the door. Most series 2 cars that I have seen do not have this light, instead they have a side light between the front wheel well and the front bumper. Or are my old eyes failing me?

    Why is the car so steeply raked? Tied down with a death grip to the trailer?
    Ed
     
  23. paulvv

    paulvv Rookie

    Feb 20, 2006
    40
    #23 paulvv, Apr 13, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hello Ed,

    The pictures are of 1341. The front suspension was off the car, and was in the process of restoration by the previous owner...hence the steep angle...

    Herewith 2 pictures of 1743, currently buried in my garage!

    Isn't it funny how flat surfaces seem to attact stuff? ....

    The interior is original, with the seats dyed black over the original red... I intend to repaint it the original color...when I get to it "someday"....

    Best Regards

    Paul
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  24. dbcooper

    dbcooper Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2005
    281
    Costa Mesa,Ca.
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    Tim Romero
    #24 dbcooper, Apr 18, 2006
    The only Ferrari that I have seen with Lucas distributors was a 212 inter that was in Garry Roberts warehouse when I turned wrenches for him.I believe it was a 1952 built car and the distributors mounted to the front of the heads.I've seen lots of old Ferrari V-12's but only one with the Lucas bits. Tim.
    they might be more common than that ,i dont know
     
  25. Johnfromtheuk

    Johnfromtheuk Rookie

    May 7, 2009
    7
    #25 Johnfromtheuk, May 8, 2009
    I hope your restoration is going well

    I am looking at buying a 250 pf built in 1960 currently residing in the UK. Would anyone happen to know if the chassis number is supposed to be stamped on it anywhere? If so, where, because I cannot find it!

    I am also unsure what the "correct" borrani wheels should be- did the california have different sized wheels to the PF?

    THere is a vehicle identification plate, as we all know, under the bonnet on the RHS. Has anyone else spotted an inconsistency in approach on the model type- in this case getting the 508 and the 128 the wrong way around?

    john
     
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