360 - Just a tiny brake issue | FerrariChat

360 Just a tiny brake issue

Discussion in '360/430' started by Ghostdiver, Oct 29, 2023.

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  1. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
    Full Name:
    Wally Hollar
    I guess I neglected my Italian girlfriend too long and now she is pissed. Went for a drive yesterday and noticed engine revs were off and exhaust tone was off on accel. Time to head back to the pit. When I tapped the brakes to switch lanes and exit, found out I didn't have to turn the wheel. RR brake issue. That 6-mile journey resulted in rotor temps that exceeded my temp guns limits of 525 F. Both calipers on the right rear showed temps in excess of 400 F. The wheel itself was over 300 F at the hub and 200 F on the spokes. Played F1 mechanic and put a blower fan on it, retired the car and marked it up as a DNF for the day.

    Right now, I don't know if it's a caliper issue, line issue, or even an emergency brake issue (wishful thinking). Plan all along was to put a full BBK on but dropping 10k right now on a Brembo GT kit is not something that will happen (dips too much into my ammo supplies!) Car is not currently tracked but driven with a little spice now and then. Track use is a consideration though in the future with MSR just a couple hours away, but I've been saying that well, for a few years now. Car is currently wearing Titan 7 TS-5 19" wheels with the end goal being to fill up the wheel and give an upgrade the braking at the same time.

    So, I'm looking for opinions on which way to go. Currently, all brake components (except pads) are factory original, including the hoses. So, with that in mind, I'm looking for suggestions on a path forward.

    Stainless hoses...
    preference on brand?

    Keep it OEM?
    Rebuild/replace what is screwed up with OEM stuff...been working for 20 or so years now but moving to drum brakes was a huge improvement over Fred Flintstone's feet too.

    Rotors...new OEM or upgrade?
    OEM has been "good" for 20 or so years here too, that's what they said about candles too before lightbulbs.

    380mm BBK on the front and wait on upgrading the rear?
    Move OEM stuff to back (new rotors, pads of course)? Would this cause an upset in braking balance?

    Must retain emergency brake on rear....
    This is a non-issue. Whatever kit I would use would have to retain the emergency brake or have an adapter.

    Other options that I might not have considered.

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  2. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 25, 2019
    1,855
    Memphis, TN
    Full Name:
    John
    Try flushing your brakes several times. It's probably the fluid gone bad.
     
  3. clean512

    clean512 Formula 3

    Feb 4, 2010
    2,120
    Full Name:
    Josh @jtcarprojects
    I say go for the oem 380mm front and 350mm rear from a 360cs/430
     
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  4. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
    Full Name:
    Wally Hollar
    Thanks for that...didn't consider that option.
     
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  5. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
    Full Name:
    Wally Hollar
    IDK, brake fluid is a year old. This is def a mechanical issue. Could be some trash trapped in the cross over line on that caliper or a collapsed hose. That would be my first two guesses. Normally I would have done my annual already but I've been tied up, so it looks like I'll be starting that soon...
     
  6. LorenzoR

    LorenzoR F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    I can't imagine your caliper pistons are in too good of shape after 20 years.. Once the car cools down, I would jack it up and see how each wheel spins when it's cool.
     
  7. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
    Full Name:
    Wally Hollar
    Well, when I had the car up in the air to change out the centerlocks a few months ago, they all freewheeled fine. Haven't had any issues with the 20 year old brakes thus far, or anything else that was unexpected with the other 20 year old parts of the car.
     
  8. LorenzoR

    LorenzoR F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    well ya never know I guess. After 16 years my pistons were pitted pretty good. Hopefully a brake flush will fix it for you
     
  9. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
    Full Name:
    Wally Hollar
    While I'm waiting on my electrical parts to arrive, I figure I'd try to sort out my brake issue.
    To refresh, the RR caliper was locking up. At this point there were two factors for sure that contributed to this, and possibly a third. (1) some minor pitting on some of the pistons of the main caliper, (2) stuck emergency brake caliper, and/or (3) possibly a collapsing/collapsed brake hose. The brake hose is more of a preventative measure since I can't be sure of its condition internally. I only know that after 23 years on the car, it may be time for a change.

    So far, here is the work that has been done. Both rear calipers were rebuilt with a kit from RB Performance incl. new stainless pistons and EBC Red pads. Both rear rotors were replaced as they were close to the min and the right rotor got pretty warm. New Goodridge stainless steel hoses were put in on all four wheels and the right emergency brake caliper was replaced since it was stuck, and it also received a significant amount of heat damage. Since I haven't started my annual yet, what better time to do so. So, along with the other fluids, the brake fluid was flushed and refilled with Pakelo 404 brake fluid, like I do every year.

    Here's where the fun starts. Bled the standard method...RR, LR, RF, then LF with my Motive Power Bleeder set at 10 psi. Both rear calipers and the LF went smoothly. RF seemed to take a long time. Both bleeders have fluid coming out but slowly, very slowly. More pressure doesn't seem to impact the flow rate either. Read several posts about it and went back and bled the master cylinder since I have not performed this before. That's when I noticed my electrical issues....

    Again, I had good flow from all the calipers. Waited about 20 minutes on each caliper (both bleeders) and 5 psi until I got a good clear stream. RF had a significant amount of air in the lines. Bled this twice but still the flow was very low. This is after multiple times bleeding the master cylinder with no air present. The only thing that I have not done is the ABS module bleed. My scan tool (ThinkDiag) has the ability to do ABS bleeds but it is car specific and Ferrari isn't listed. Since I had other things on my mind like my electrical system, I haven't researched to see what "mainstream" vehicles have the same/similar ABS module. Up until this point, I haven't been able to start the car to check the pedal but that will come later today. After the first bleed, the pedal was nice and squishy but that was with the car not running.

    So, does anyone have an idea on why the RF caliper is being a PITA? Could this caliper be having an issue with stuck pistons as well? There was no indication of it prior to this...car did not pull under any braking. Could it have anything to do with the ABS module? Any other suggestions or rabbit holes that I need to go down?

    For reference, car is a 360 with a 12/99 production date that spent most of its life reaching 22k miles up until 2015 when I bought it. Now, it's sitting at 54k miles. Car is not tracked but is driven "spiritedly" from time to time. Brake fluid is changed annually and up until this year, there have been no issues. Brakes are standard OEM components except for the previously mentioned hoses.
     
  10. Some Guy in the sky

    Some Guy in the sky Formula Junior

    Sep 19, 2018
    363
    Is a squishy brake pedal normal for your car (honest question to you and anybody else whose pedal feels similar)? Mine is always like pushing up against a brick wall.
     
  11. 67bmer

    67bmer F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 28, 2015
    2,995
    MD
    Interesting! I have not had problems with brakes on my cars. I’ll have to double check but I don’t think I would get a drop of fluid out at 5psi. I thought it took more like 20psi to get flow from reservoir through master, ABS, lines, calipers, etc.
     
  12. 67bmer

    67bmer F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 28, 2015
    2,995
    MD
    360 more so than any car I have is like pushing against a brick wall!
     
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  13. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
    Full Name:
    Wally Hollar
    No, normally brick wall like you said. This was after the first bleed before I did the master cylinder, so I knew there was still air in the system.
     
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  14. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
    Full Name:
    Wally Hollar
    Hmm. Interesting. Read a post about this and someone said not to go over 15, which I thought was strange since you I would have thought that you'd be exerting more than 15 psi especially with the car running. Every other caliper was flowing great at 10 psi, but I'll give 20 a shot and see what it does.
     
  15. enzoferrari

    enzoferrari Karting

    Jun 7, 2006
    50
    I was led to believe not to go over 15 psi on the motive
     
  16. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3

    Mar 18, 2005
    1,348
    Southeast Texas
    Full Name:
    Wally Hollar
    Kinda what I thought but I couldn't find anything from Motive about it. Only thing I found from them was it said to defer to the vehicle specs. Didn't find anything in the WSM but I wasn't surprised.
     
  17. anotherred360

    anotherred360 Formula Junior

    Jan 10, 2015
    279
    USA
    Increasing the pressure will test the quality of the seal between the bleeder and the reservoir. Pressure bleeders work in a pinch, but it's 20psi vs. several hundred when you're on the brakes. My personal experience has always been that a manual bleed with a person using the pedal always gets a little bit more air out after replacing lines and calipers.
     
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  18. Scottslaw

    Scottslaw Formula Junior

    Remove the motive and then take out the bleed nipple completely for that caliper and see if it’s blocked with debris. One of mine was and I had same symptoms (slow bleed). Also check to make sure that the little pistons aren’t pushed all the way into the bore. If they are, I think you can block the flow of fluid when you go to bleed. I had that problem too.
     
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  19. 67bmer

    67bmer F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 28, 2015
    2,995
    MD
    I WAS WRONG!! Found the picture of my flushing around 10psi... I refilled the master, only using pressure here.

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