Just Before Dying, a Thrill at 41,000 Feet

23 & 31 years olds? Makes me worry about the commuter flight I'm taking next week. Give me an old experienced pilot any day.

 

As our corporate pilot reminds me when he lets me right seat...

..there are old pilots .. and bold pilots... but no old bold pilot!

 

I have flown at 41,000 feet AGL before in a Boeing 777 as well as a 767.....it's quite the view, and quite rare on a commercial flight......looks like inexperienced pilots (as well as a rear engined T-tail aircraft) caused their demise.

T-tail configurations as well as rear engined jets are uniquely subject to the kind of occurance which caused this aircraft to stall and pitch up when in the "coffin corner". It has plagued this basic design since the fifties and for the life of me I don't know why manufacturer's bother to continue producing them.

 

Amen to that. A friend of my father's was quite a daring pilot in his day. Built a hell of a nice little company too, right up until he planted himself, his brother, and a Canadair Challenger into the ground.

This kind of stuff scares the hell out of me. Jim, what makes me the most nervous is precious few of the newer commercial pilots have any military flight background. Maybe I'm being thick-headed, but I just can't see any substitute for military discipline, training and hours.

 

Sad story...... but, I could see it happening.

Pilots with no passengers having some fun. I do think age was a factor.

I've flown FL60..... what does that give me?

Tyler, what's the story with the Challenger? Do you know the date of incident? USA?

 

Remember that jet a few years ago whose pilots stopped talking to the ATC guys? Turns out they suffered massive decompression and all on board passed out. The jet flew on autopilot from somewhere down south like Georgia all the way to Iowa where it crashed when it ran out of fuel. Chase planes that caught up with it said that the windows were frosted over and no sign of life as it continued to fly. Talk about the "Flying Dutchman".

 

Are you talking about Payne Stuarts Lear?

 

Are you talking about the golfer Payne Stewart? That was back in 1999 on a private jet, I'm thinking a Lear Jet. The family took the charter business to court a month ago and the hearings are finished, I don't know if something has happened since then.

Edit: They went to court about the plane don't being maintained correctly.

 

the payne stewart incident?

 

Probably so. I remember that there was some golfer on board.

 

I wouldnt do that personally, a bad choice. But that plane, is a really cool plane.

 

Sorry to butt in, but the altitude they were attempting to fly at appears to be within the performance envelope of that particular a/c. I believe the service ceiling is FL41 on RJ200s.

Here's the Payne Stewart synopsis. Yes, you're right - it was a Lear 35.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm

RMX

 

Just because these two particular pilots were youngish, does not mean all young pilots act this way. Yes, they were foolish, and their attitude probably had something to do with their relative young age, but please do not lump all pilots into this category just because they are not 50+ years old. There are many experienced pilots who are not even 25, and have more flight time than pilots who are 10 years their senior, but still do not get respect, because of their age.

I understand your apprehension, but there will always be a few people who, for whatever reason, take stupid risks, and end up dead because of it; but this is certainly not the majority of pilots, especially ones working at a large airline.

A pilot who flies for Continental Express told me this one:

A lady was boarding a small commuter jet, and noticed the captain looked quite young and asked, "Excuse me, but how old are you?"

The captain replied, "That doesn't matter, but more importantly, how much do you weigh?"

 

Actually, McLarenboy, that illustrates the problem with younger pilots. Their immaturity lets their ego gets in the way and they make stupid mistakes. Why would he need to know how much she weighed? As a percentage of the load on a commercial flight, the weight of a single pax is generally insignificant. The fuel and cargo are the two items where the weight (and the distribution of the weight ) counts. If the pilot really was not trying to be smarmy, he should have asked how much she weighed, where she was sitting, and how much everyone else weighed, and where they were all sitting. Further, all of this is considered carefully by the airline ops people--he should really have addressed the question to them, not to a concerned passenger.

It may be a witty retort on the surface, but for a pilot it's a dumb comment and backfires to reflect poorly on his judgement.

 

Well, I think you'd get pretty tired of people questioning whether you were capable of doing your job too, solely based on your age. Especially if you consider how much hard work, dedication, and training it requires to become a commercial pilot. It is not something they let anyone do, despite the notion of airline pilot's being 'glorified bus drivers'.

Sure its a smart comment, but after a while, every gets tried of stupid questions. Yes, you should never make smart remarks back to the passengers, but when you get asked over and over, it must be tempting to say something back.

Why would she need to know how old he was? If he has the job, the airline obviously thinks he's capable, and the only thing she's basing her judgment on is his age...not his capabilities, she hasn't even ridden on the airplane yet.


I just don't want people to think that young pilot automatically means stupid pilot.

 

And how old was the "Tex" Johnson when he barrel rolled the 707 during a demo flight at about FOUR HUNDRED FEET (yes, 400) AGL??? The Boeing Prez damn near had a heart attack!

These guys ate it because they were stupid. Did a maneuver they weren't supposed to, then didn't fess up immediately. The latter probably cost them their lives. 40,000 feet can buy you a lot of distance to glide to some place to land...at least 75 miles, probably more.

 

Wasn't aware of this story.. thanks for bringing it up.

C.
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Now THAT'S airmanship!!!

I'm surprised that an empty CRJ struggled at 41,000ft. Gulfstream GIV and GV can cruise up to 43,000ft and I'm pretty sure the Canadair private jets (include the Global Express) cruise at those levels as well. Last week I flew in a B737-800 with winglets, we cruised at 39,000. I was quite surprised as the older gen B737 (300, 400 and 500) struggled up to 37,000. Highest I've been is 41,000 in B767-277.

 

I've been a professional pilot for over 20 years now. Currently a captain on the MD-11.
Just a theory, (and most likely worth what you're paying for it): With the current rates of compensation of the airline industry, the people who are embarking on the long and difficult journey of pursuit of a carrear flying for the "majors", are in fact, a different breed than their predicessors. The "gold at the end of the rainbow" has been removed, and those who previously pursued true excellence in their careers have made the decision to go other places, (ie medicine, law, or wall street), where their professional dicipline will be recognized financially.
Look for more of this type of dangerous nonsense as soon as the "new breeds" reach the big jets..............

 

Damn. I've flown on an MD-11 and various Boeing aircraft, mostly 757's and it may sound stupid, but the Boeing just felt much better. Perhaps it was that I am unfamiliar with the feel, as a passenger of course, of the MD's.

 

Video of 1 of the Tex Johnson 707 barrel rolls is here:

http://www.avpics.de/mov/civ/civ.htm

 

Eric, my bad, I was thinking Challenger and it was actually a Sabreliner. He was a nice guy but I know of more than one person who had said their only flight with him would be there last. He liked to take risks in business and in the air. In the year previous to his death he crashed his helicopter and walked away. Moral of the story: luck eventually runs out, don't push yours.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=CHI98MA260&rpt=fa

 

Bombardier Not Negligent in Payne Stewart Crash

On June 8, a Florida jury decided that Bombardier's Learjet unit was not liable for the Oct. 25, 1999, crash of a Learjet 35 that killed professional golfer Payne Stewart, three other passengers and both crewmembers. The golfer's family had brought suit against the manufacturer in an Orlando, Fla. court -- the jet's departure point -- asking $200 million in damages. The six-woman jury deliberated for more than six hours before returning the verdict. According to the NTSB's probable-cause determination, the jet crashed because of "incapacitation of the flight crewmembers as a result of their failure to receive supplemental oxygen following a loss of cabin pressurization, for undetermined reasons." Stewart's family maintained that Learjet was negligent in the airplane's design and manufacture and that a faulty pressurization system resulted in a decompression event. Once the flight departed Orlando, radio contact was lost after ATC cleared it to FL390, and the Learjet continued on a heading eventually taking it to South Dakota. The airplane was intercepted by several military aircraft, the pilots of which could not see any structural anomaly. On exhausting its fuel, the Learjet impacted an open field near Aberdeen, S.D. All on board died.