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Just wondering, anyone ever drop a 6spd into a 512 or 3x8?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Auraraptor, Aug 12, 2004.

  1. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    I was wondering if anyone ever did drop a 6spd into a 512TR/F512M or a 308/328. If so where did they source the trany from and of course did it have an open gate?

    If you could do it for under 20k for the TRs or under 10k for the 3x8, it would seem like a fun prop. if your trany ever failed.

    I for one wouldn't mind getting one for my 328, provided it was gated.
     
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  3. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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  4. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Or at least not in the last 12 hours.....
     
  5. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Haha, the site is slower today, must be since everyone is off to a certain place that starts with M...:)
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    The stock gearbox/diff for those models are so deeply integrated with the engine design that you'd need a much bigger snorkel for such a project IMO -- e.g., basically doing a 288 conversion to a 308.
     
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  8. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Thats what I feared. I was wondering though if any modern 6spds where small enough to get in there. Like a modern Getrag or ZF unit, and just get a custom job done for the gate and shifter.
     
  9. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I haven't given a 6 speed much thought, but I have given some thought to converting the stock 5 spd to sequential shift. I think that would be pretty straight forward and rate a "way cool". From there it shouldn't be hard to add the paddles to the steering column, the clutch pedal would need to stay, but it would still be cool.

    Another option I have given a little thought to is putting the new audi f1 type gear box in, which is a 6 spd, but I want it because is an f1. I just can't convince myself it would be worth the effort though.
     
  10. ants2au

    ants2au Formula Junior

    Nov 19, 2003
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    what would be cool is to take the transmission from underneath the 512 out, and connect a transverse one to the back of the engine. you instantly lower the whole unit by at least 10" (or there abouts)

    unfortunately, the whole engine would have to move forward even more, to line up the driveshafts

    it's what Ferrari should have done originally.
    Oh well can't go back, only forwards :)
     
  11. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I can undertand a 6 speed for a revy little motor but a 512 is a slugger you would probably waste more time shifting gears than you would gain in performance. In any event if speed is the thing adding more hp has got to be far easier and economical.

    Hypotheticaly given the intergration of engine and transmission i am sure given unlimited resources anything is possible but not realisticaly probable with the known constraints.
     
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  13. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

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    With all the torque of 512 you would be better off with a 4 speed than a 6 speed.
     
  14. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Well a 427 Cobra did well with a 4 speed, but then race cars can change ratios to suit the track. Realisticaly though where does it all end, i hear mercedes and bmw are going to 7 speeed autos. I understand autos can change by themselvs endlessly so thee may be a logic, but for each car there must be an ideal weight power and no of ratios, below that ammount you loose and above extra gears are suplurflous.

    After all a Boss Hoss motorcycle only has need for two gears.
     
  15. GeorgeSSSS

    GeorgeSSSS Karting

    Aug 12, 2004
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    All current supercars have 6 speed manual transmissions. The 512TR & M were made before any 6 speed manuals existed. I've long believed that having a 6 speed in a 512TR/M would vault it into stratospheric performance. Are there any engineers out there who care to chime in with an opinion based on fact (unlike my opinion based on my gut).

    I'm new to this forum and I think it is outstanding.

    George SSSS
     
  16. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Not quite accurate. BMW had a 6spd manual V12 since 91. Vette was also a 6spd manual (using an excellent European ZF unit I may add)

    I am sure there were others.

    I feel that today given 10+ years in tech., A modern 6spd might be able to fit into the housing.
     
  17. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    It would be a slight improvent, not a big one. The big advantage with a 6sp comes from bing able to run a peakier, higher output engine without getting out of the sweet stop of the power curve. If you have an engine with a wide power band, adding more gears will actually slow you down because it takes time to shift. I the way you pick the number of gears you need is to set 1st gear so that rolling on the throttle will just break traction. High gear should get you to peak hp and no more so you get the highest top speed possible. Then you just divide up the space between with enough steps to keep you in the power band. I seriously doubt a 512 would be any faster with another gear unless the engine was built with bigger cams.
     
  18. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Well my thoughts are if they can place on into a 550 with no issue and I can only assume they have a wider power band then the 512s, along with more torque at low rpms, then I do not see why it would not be possible in 512's.
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Well, there are reasons they may have made the move. One is marketing, it could be that they figured they couldn't sell a 5 speed. I thing, but may be wrong, the 550 makes more power and is probably a little slipperier aero wise so it should have a high top speed, that could easily make the difference. Anyway, I'm sure it could be done, I put a kawasaki 6 spd in a H-D sporster 4 spd case on my roadrace bike. It was a lot of work, but pretty straight forward and it helped a bit. mostly because I had a choice of gear in most turn instead of having to get it exactly right with traffic. It didn't really help my lap times, but made the bike easier to race. I suspect it would have a similar effect on a 512.
     
  20. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    The vette doesn't really have a six speeed, it is a five speed with sixth as an overdrive for fuel economy. I agrere with the points made by mike, if you have a peakier engine more gears allows you to keep it on song in more varied situations, so to really experience the benefit of six speeds in a 512m you would need different cams which which will probably raise revs and peak horsepower, but then i would question the ability of some of those engine componants to withstand the forces involved without modification. so you could take your 512 engine scrap most of the rotational mass inside like heavy crank conrods pistons etc, do up the cams, raise the compression to take advantage of all of this, then figure out the electronics fuel flow to make it all work. That way you would have an engine to really work with the six speed. Of course the car would be still to heavy so a program to add lightnes would be in order. By then you would have spent more than an f40 which could easily be moded for even more power. Of course such a modded car would be an interesting project and the end result fun.

    Years ago I raced a 355 with my boxer, from about 30 to 80 he was faster than me. After that I began to reel him in, because each time he had to shift he lost drive. Turns out from about 90 I was in fourth all the way up to 145 whereas the 355 had to make at least two shifts maybee three. Of course i would expect than after 150 the boxers gearing and aerodynamics would work against it and the 355 would pull away again.

    Lastly i notice a lot of newer cars have theoreticaly high top speeds, between gearing power and aerodynamics even sedans can get up to 150+ if the road is really really long, thats not the same thing as a real performance car that is quick everywhere and gets up to speed in a reasonable distance.
     
  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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  22. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    That's not true.

    The Vette 6-speed is called a "T-56" and it's made by Borg Warner. It definitely has six speeds. The ratios are 2:97:1, 1:94:1, 1.35:1, 1.00:1, 0.84:1, and 0.62:1 forward, and 3.28:1 reverse.

    You could call both fifth and sixth gears "overdrive" gears because they're taller than the 1:1 of fourth gear. But they're really there.
     
  23. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    What are your thoughts?

    A sequential gearbox is a completely different beast than a regular manual gearbox.
     

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