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Keep my 911 and get a F12 or go all the way with an 812?

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by 96redLT4, Aug 18, 2019.

  1. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2009
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    California
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    Jim
    I was pretty sold on getting an 812 as my first F car. I really would like bulletproof reliability and to start a relationship with a dealer. I really enjoy the manual tranny though in my 911 (991.1 GTS) and I like the fact I can take both my kids with me in a pinch as I did up Hwy 1 this week. Thoughts?
     
  2. Thecadster

    Thecadster Formula Junior
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    Apr 27, 2017
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    Can you tighten up the question(s)? I have a new 812 and would love to assist you.
     
  3. SCFerrari

    SCFerrari Formula 3
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    F12's are going for around half the price that they were new at this point.. at least one's like mine (2014) - and are keepers as far as I'm concerned regardless of depreciation...I predict the 812 will take the same journey.

    If keeping your 911 means shifting to a F12, I'd test drive one first but highly consider it... so you have the best of two worlds to choose from as you state..
     
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  4. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2009
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    Jim
    I guess the bottom line- is the new car experience of an 812 worth an F12 plus a really good P car?
    I'd really like to do just that- test drive both. I guess the consensus of what I have read is the F12 is at least 80-90% as goo as an 812
     
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  5. Thecadster

    Thecadster Formula Junior
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    Apr 27, 2017
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    Got it. That I can handle. Here is my detailed F12/812 analysis I put together when I first took delivery of the 812. Essentially the next dozen or so rides confirmed those initial observations. I am going to add more color/context in a follow up post when I have a little more time to gather my thoughts. This is from a while back....

    So in between t-storms today I managed to get in my initial 30 mile blitz through the backwoods of North Carolina. I didn’t need any more time to validate my decision to move forward on the 812. If I’m honest with myself, I was more than a little concerned about the price walk between my perfectly awesome F12 and the 812. The dollar gap’s considerable and I was worried that the juice might not be worth the squeeze. Even though I had the opportunity to thrash a new 812 at Road Atlanta as part of Corsa Pilota last summer, I still wondered how it might work for my primary driving, which largely consists of carving up the twisty’s in North Carolina. I felt then, and still do now, that the F12 is 85-90% of the 812. That extra 10-15% has a considerable price. To me though, in the end, it was worth it. And I say this as an unabashed superfan of the F12. Here is what makes the 812 worth the price of admission:
    • 4WS - This new addition goes a long ways to reducing the overall feel of size and heft that is ever-present in the F12. Both cars are remarkably nimble, but the 4WS presents a significant upgrade.
    • Gearbox - The shifts are much quicker, especially the downshifts. My biggest gripe on the F12 was the relatively slow downshift. Compared to my Performante, it felt very much DCT 1.0. The 812 removes that criticism altogether. Added bonus is the shifts come quicker, which means there’s more of them. Also, they are more authoritative, not so much a slam (like a single clutch Aventador), but just very much both quick and abrupt.
    • Noise - Hard to improve on the F12, but the 812 is louder, which for me, is a huge win. To my ear, the cold start is much much louder. I did not go much over 6000 rpms, and can only imagine and assume that winding the V12 to the redline will be corresponding more eventful in the 812.
    • Power - The F12 is freakishly overpowered. It’s a white knuckled affair every time you slam the accelerator. The 812 is even more powerful, and shockingly, the power upgrade is readily apparent.
    • Confidence inspiring - Despite the obvious power upgrade, the 812 is more planted and creates far more assurance and certainty. The F12 always had a Jekyll and Hyde quality that I found endearing, but the 812 gently shifts towards Jekyll and away from Hyde.
    • Turn in - I actually really liked the light and fast steering feel in the F12 and I always thought the turn in was surprisingly engaging. The 812 is greatly refined in its steering feel and directional control. I look forward to exploring this more in subsequent runs.
    • My spec - The 812 is my first time creating a Ferrari spec and I love how it turned out. My worry regarding the spec took on a life of its own over the last several months, but all that trepidation was for naught. It’s exactly how I wanted it to be. Added bonus, my wife loves the spec. She actually called it “elegant and tasteful”. This last part is special as my wife is completely nonplussed on my car addiction. That she actually likes the 812 is an unexpected windfall. (For context, she thinks my Rosso Mars Performante is silly, and thinks the Miami Blue 991.2 GT3 RS I am thinking about acquiring screams mid-life crisis…)
    Bottom line, the 812 is a massive step forward from the already perfectly incredible F12. It’s a forever car for me and I look forward to many years and miles spent thoroughly exploring its capabilities and personality.
     
  6. FCMD

    FCMD Karting

    Mar 21, 2019
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    El Campo, Texas
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    Frank
    I recently bought a 991.1 RS to go with my F12 and have an 812 build in the works. I also had a '13 991.1 Carrera S as my daily. I tell everyone I am impressed that the F12 can almost keep up with the RS on the track. For a "big" sports car it is very nimble.

    The F12 is not a GT car, it is a sports car: the comfort level is no different to the RS. I would not trade the RS (with no back seats) and the F12 for an 812- even though mine is still on paper. The RS is just such a beast on track. But, I would have traded the 991.1 S and the F12 for the 812 as they're both sports cars. I'd go so far as to say the 2 rear seats are not worth keeping the GTS and trade it for the F12. Same ride on the road. Neither car can be driven anywhere close to potential.

    Unfortunately, you can configure just about any car these days, and I found my RS with 231 mi on it exactly as I configured it on the Porsche website. But doing so at your Ferrari dealership is a very satisfying feeling. Is it worth the 150-200K more to specify it exactly as you want it over a close to what u like F12? Only you can answer that question.
     
  7. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2009
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    Jim
    ^^very well written and I look forward to hearing your subsequent thoughts!
    I feel like if I find a car that speaks to me I am ready to make the move. I could spec my own but it seems like in addition to paying full sticker you end up having to wait until the end of the build cycle to get your car, especially as a first time buyer.
     
  8. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

    May 29, 2019
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    A.B
    Let it be said that all I say is of course subjective opinion.

    I can understand why you would like to keep the 991.1, as it's a great car, and this is taken into my perception written here.

    After experiencing the F12 and 812 back to back, I definitely see the 812 for what I think it is, and how it compares to the F12. Yes, the F12 can be had for much less, but I personally still think the 812 is worth it. Every single little thing that annoyed me about the F12 seemed to have been solved in the 812 - and that's big. That's what makes you smile in the morning when you go into the garage. The satisfaction that you know it's just right.

    Suspension is where I think the 812 shines the most. Yes, it's a bit firmer, but it's still a lot more comfortable as it rides much better. The F12 has a tendency to be too busy in the suspension, like there's too much spring rate for the damper rate. It's by no means Ferrari California bad, but it unsettles the car and rattles you around. The 812 feels much more planted and in control. When I say in control, I don't mean this in a way that the F12 feels more raw, it just feels less "in contact" so to speak. Not a sensation I consider a good attribute.

    I'm truly impressed with the way the 812 puts the power down. It has more power than the F12, but at the same time, it is mch more capable of using it. Rolling the windows down and flooring the 812 on to an open stretch of road is simply minblingly fun.

    They both sound great, but again, the 812 has the edge. It sounds more like the TdF, and somehow, the noise inside seems smoother and less dorney than the F12. Not so much in the sense of more noise insulation, because I'm not sure they are vastly different in this regard, but more in the sense that the exhaust system is tuned differently and just sounds nicer.

    Throttle response and steering feel is much better. This is where I think the biggest improvement has been made. The 812 still has a very fast rack like the F12, but it seems weighted much better. Throttle response has been refined as well, as the F12 felt a bit on the sensitive side.

    The RWS system is very good. In all the cars I've experienced with RWS, no doubt that the 812 has the least intrusive and most helpful system I've had the pleasure of experiencing.

    Lastly there's the interior. I was never a huge fan of the F12 interior, but the 812 really suits me. It's close enough to be intimate and inviting, but open and airy enough to let you breathe and not be claustrophobic. To me, it simply feels more complete and contemporary.

    I really like how the 812 is capable of both ripping down a small backroad or on a track, but also settle down once you need to cruise along in a GT. I think it's quite astonishing how well the 812 bridges the gap between a true GT and a mid engined sportscar. It has such a broad range and it is trule a Jekyll and Hyde type car and do several things. But what is absolutely amazing is the fact that where the norm is that if a car does several things, they usually don't do anything truly well. This what sets the 812 apart. It does several things, and it manages to do them incredibly well.



    I think your dealer should let you experience both cars back to back. Some of the differences are subtle, while others are huge. But it is a very interesting experience to see how different these two cars in fact are.

    Is the 812 worth the added price? Absolutely, and then some.

    Good luck.
     
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  9. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2009
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    Jim
    ^^Great review and feedback. I really appreciate it.
     
  10. VladimirB

    VladimirB Rookie

    May 16, 2016
    17
    Moscow, Russia
    As current owner of both a 991.1 GTS (PDK) and an F12 I'd say that this combination covers nearly all bases vis-a-vis having just one sports car in your stable.

    I can still drive my kids to school in 991 (and I regularly do), I can drive in winter (snow and ice slush) without really worrying about my brake cylinder bolts corrosion or paint flaking, I can take the 991 to places where you would not want to go in a Ferrari, and I just can not live without having a 911 in my garage (with 991.1 either in civilian or GT form being the pinnacle of the modern 911 iteration, the turbo engine and especially the 992 interior design decisions being quite a questionable development..).

    I have not driven a 812 and do not really plan to change my F12 to that generation of front-engine F cars, as - and I base this just on the reviews, including some on this forum - improvements/design decisions in 812 in terms of driving dynamics and handling (I do not care about infotainment or interior) have somehow trimmed the raw character of the F12 which I value much above having the RWS or a bit shorter gearing.

    I love its wild nature and I love the feeling of an occasion - and respecting the car's power and ability. 740 bhp is more than enough for a RWD car, believe me - you do not really need 60 bhp more..

    And remember - you are not getting any more modern NA 911 cars with rear seats...
     
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  11. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Great advice and thoughts above. The only thing I can add is my take on each car's personality. The F12 always felt like it wanted to be a mature car, until you push it. This has been a trait I've noticed with the front engine V12 cars from Ferrari. The 812 is the first time I've driven a front V12 Ferrari where the car felt immediately like it wants to play. Very much reminds me of the 458. But now in a car with considerably more power! If we are to quantify these two cars, then I am sure the 10-15% number is a good one. But reducing the cars to such an analysis does a disservice for me. I really like how these cars feel, and I loved my F12, but the 812 feels like its almost an entirely different model.
     
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  12. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

    May 29, 2019
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    As someone who has experienced both the F12 and 812, and written a few reviews of these cars here, I have to disagree completely. And I'm a bit puzzled as to why you state that the raw nature of the 812 has been trimmed, as well as saying that the OP does not need the added 60 hp. To say the the raw nature of the F12 has been taken or trimmed, is as far from the truth as can be. It is as hard and raw as the F12, if not more so. It is simply just a much more balanced package overall. Initially you'll feel that the suspension in the 812 is harder, because it is, but at the same time, it has a better set up out of the box, so to speak. So while you have a firmer ride, you also avoid the rolling and wallowing through the corners that in my opinion adds the complete opposite of a raw feeling, and you avoid the jarring and shaking of the suspension coping to settle when going ruts and over bumps. I find the F12 soft and unsettling in a sense, and in a way like something is not right in the chassis. This to me has nothing to do with rawness, it just subtracts from the driving experience. Add to this that as I and others before me have said, the RWS is very neutral and non intrusive feeling - you don't notice it. All in all, I'd say while the 812 is more refined, it's also the more sporty of the two because it copes and handles better - it's sharper and more direct. This is also why I have stated elsewhere that I think it bridges the gap between the mid engined cars and the GT cars better, because it spans the gap wider - a split personality car. Here I would like to say that the notion that you don't need the added 60 hp, is not as factual as you make it. Because fact is that the 812 is better at putting down 800PS than the F12 is at putting down 740PS. Because of its plated nature and ability to cope with the power, it is also more usable. Does this mean it's harder to get into trouble with the 812? No. It'll bite you just as hard and punish you just as much if you don't respect it. It is still a very visceral and raw car when you push it, and if you don't respect it, it will bite back - fast.

    In the past 10 years, no car outside of a few Ferrari VS cars, have given me such a tremendous sense of occasion and desire to just keep going as the 812 has.
     
  13. VladimirB

    VladimirB Rookie

    May 16, 2016
    17
    Moscow, Russia
    #13 VladimirB, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
    Look, you have driven both - I have not.

    I just respectfully disagree that a car with the same suspension geometry, same dampers and presumably same generation of tires has been magically transformed into a completely different animal in terms of being able to put power down or somehow feeling completely different to drive - at least USD100k different or "991.1 GTS different" to the topic starter.

    In a "money no object" scenario, I'd say go for the latest - why not an SF90 then as it's not much more expensive in that context.

    In a scenario where a person has to sell a very nice 911 to pay for the difference - I'd say buy an F12 and put some Novitec springs on it if you feel the suspension is too soft.

    And as to where you can feel the difference between 740 and 800 hp in power (and not in gearing) - I am really at a loss. At how fast it gets from 290 km/h to 330 km/h?

    The fastest I've driven the F12 for any prolonged period of time on a public road is 270 km/h - and this was just for a couple of times given all the traffic and the speed limit of 190 km/h on that stretch before you lose your license. I did not really need extra 60 hp to get to that limit a couple of tenths of a second later))

    And the F12 felt perfectly planted by the way at that speed - much better than my rather nervous 991.1 with lowered sport suspension (SPASM) and active roll-bars or what goes for them in Porsches (PDCC) at 240-250 km/h on the same road.
     
  14. gds7368

    gds7368 Rookie
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    I thought my 430 and 458 and now F12 were all forever cars after I purchased them.
    There will likely be a day that my 2015 F12, and your new 812, become funds for the next awesome forever car :)
     
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  15. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    This is a very nice description. Playful. Sums it up so well. I suppose this is similar to the experience I got within minutes of a car that just kept saying "C'mon, let's go! More!".
     
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  16. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    #16 Caeruleus11, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
    I was surprised- this is indeed the case. It really does feel different. Not a x.1 version. More like a 2.0 version, or perhaps even like the next version. If I didn't know it was on the F12 frame, and had the same mounting points for the panels and interior, you could have fooled me.. I always thought the F12 was almost magical in its ability to put down its power for a RWD car. Its done via the F1 Trac predictive traction control as well as the e-diff working together. And it allowed me to constantly put the power down as opposed to in my 599, where I could spin the tires- all the time! That was fun, but as some friends are fond of saying: "spinning ain't winning"....

    Now here comes the 812 and I was shocked that not only does it have more power at the engine, but it has even more power than the difference suggests at the wheels because of the 6% shorter gears. My purely subjective opinion is the 812 feels like it has 150 more hp. Not 60. And it gets put down more effectively. No doubt, they have updated the software behind all of this. I wouldn't be surprised if the hardware is updated as well. Perhaps the dampers are better versions.

    The F12 is a wonderful car, and I agree, in terms of value, the F12 is a better value. But, the 812 is not an "F12.1" it is far more than that.
     
  17. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    All I can say is that I urge you to try one then. You might not believe us when we say the difference is that big, but it is.

    It's no different than the difference between the 458 Spider and the 488 Spider. On the surface, it would seem that it is more of the same flexiness and chasing the steering column, but reality is very different and the cars are worlds apart.

    The usefulness of the added power of the 812 versus the F12 has little to do with how fast you get from 200-300 kph. It does however have a lot to do with how you get from 50-150, because that is actually where the difference is most noticable. This is a big deal as this is the range in which the majority of spirited back road driving is done.

    Again, drive it and see for yourself.:)
     
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  18. Thecadster

    Thecadster Formula Junior
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    Only if a newer/better Ferrari NA V12 becomes available. No crystal ball, but I don’t see that happening. It’s super sad really, but with industry rules/regulations, the NA breed are dinosaurs.
     
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  19. Thecadster

    Thecadster Formula Junior
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    Totally agree. F12 is a much more white knuckle affair. For lack of a better expression it’s much more floaty and bouncy. Indeed, the F12’s power far exceeds it’s ability to deliver. Meanwhile, the 812 power and handling are perfectly harmonious. Hard to explain. That’s about the best I can do.
     
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  20. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2009
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    Jim
    Thanks guys for the continued replies. I am enjoying reading them and feel like I am learning a lot! One other factor is that I really have only two garage spaces for a daily and a 'weekend' car. Ceiling is too low for a lift. I tried to talk my wife out of her spot so I would have 3 spots but no luck.

    J
     
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  21. sampelligrino

    sampelligrino Formula Junior

    Apr 16, 2017
    582
    One thing to note OP if you have no Fcar experience yet is how under the radar a 911 is compared to a Ferrari, at least here in CA in my experience

    Driving my 488 around and being new to the brand, I've had people stopping to roll down the windows to chat, taking pics of me driving when I hope they are paying attention to the road, chatting when pumping gas, etc.. Everyone has been a good sport about it and I try to just be as kind and friendly as possible, but it's definitely a different experience vs driving my 911. The Porsche now feels incognito and I can go about my business undetected, a bit more relaxed, parking it is easier less worrisome, etc

    If your 991 GTS would have to go either way (my 991.1 50th is going to the grave with me God willing), I'd probably go 812 for the newer tech, newer warranty, hope that it would have more bugs and kinks worked out. Slightly prefer the F12's looks and scary appeal breaking tires loose, but 812 from what I can tell sounds even better and has RWS which could be nice
     
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  22. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Sam is right, especially when you are new to the experience. It doesn't phase me at all now, but I've been at this for nearly 15 years.

    Don't talk your wife out of her spot- that's typically going to bite you in the long run.

    How low are your ceilings?

    Did I miss what you said your daily car is? Is it the 911?

    In your case, the course of action I think I'd advise is try the F12. The depreciation will be slower/ lower than the 812. If you love the F12 experience but want more/ improved/ then, as long as typical historical norms hold, the 812 will depreciate and you will be able to sell out of the F12 and get an 812 and the difference between the two should be smaller than it is now. This way you can keep your 911 and also have the Ferrari experience. Suggestion: make sure you get new Michelin Pilot Supersport tires on the car and also avoid cars with what looks like bubbling next to the air vents on the rear haunches.
     
  23. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Formula Junior

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    I've thought about this too Sam. The Ferrari seems almost like a '4th' car especially in the smaller town where I live. It would certainly stand out like a sore thumb and I would worry sometimes about the reactions when neighbors, patients etc would see me driving this around. I think many people see a Porsche, and think yeah he's got a good job....but a Ferrari?
     
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  24. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2009
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    My current daily is an M4, pretty widely bagged on by car reviewers, but its been a great car for me. I have thought about keeping the 911 as a daily but its almost too nice for these chores and to sit out all day everyday. Also the Porsche is a manual tranny. Great for me but my wife can't drive it in a pinch.
     
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  25. Robb

    Robb F1 World Champ
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    Feb 28, 2004
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    Robb Williamson
    Two beautiful cars are always more fun than one I say.

    I’d keep the Porsche and add the f12

    Robb
     

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