I remember watch that very piece on french TV as a kid. Made me feel 25 years younger ! I also recalled the reporter saying koeing felt engine wasn't sufficiently responsive at low rpm and added a supercharger to ensure power is there before twin turbos kick in. Ah... gotta admire the attitude: testing a car like that in ice cold conditions ! that does limit room for excesses
I've often wondered about the supercharger. Where was this mounted, what type, centrifigul or roots style? Any images anywhere of this?
Dear turbo joe, here the a max boost pressure detail discovered one more time for the Evolution. ????? ?????? ????????????? ????????1000?? - ????????????? The boost gauge indicates the needle had reached in memory exact 1 bar. This means no more than 800 hp. ????????????? For the Evolution in the video at page 5, the boost after reaching higher at around 5000 rpm it seems to sit down just above 1.0 bar. Further demonstration about the max boost chosed usually for the deliver.
Dear turbo joe, assuming to buy a Koenig Competition Evolution. How do you think is the price to "buy" a geat car? Do you think it will be hard to sale when you want to get rid of it? Best,
sorry please, but this I can not answer. I think nobody could answer this. it is a question of those how have nearly all and don´t know what to buy next. if those are also car enthusiasts and they don´t have to care about the money I´m sure they will pay the price when those cars have been new, even more if all is fixed right. not like koenig did it where ever some parts break down. problem is to find someone who can service those cars then. with such a koenig you may not go to a F shop. forget this ! ! ! so those cars are only for very very rich people ( not me , but I feel well ) or for people like me who can fix all if something breaks. to sell those cars later it is the same problem. almost impossible to sell for a good price. you see the prices for normal TR, 512TR and 512M. so in my eyes too low for this what they have been new and what you may have fun with. but that is the problem of the high annual costs. those koenig cars are all unique and none is equal to the other. for an inverstment there are better possibilities. but to join the fun with such a car you will not find equal cars because those are absolute unique. for me it is more an experimental car because I do a lot of modifications on my car and still not finished. but for me it is hobby, and hobby is equal for me to my work. there I make no difference. otherwise I never would have owned this car.
I´m looking just now for manufacturers for map-controlled, self learning injection- ignition systems what is all available on the market? just now I only know: MOTEC TRIJEKT KMS but I´m sure there are more available, I hope so. so please post some manufacturers that I can get more knowledge what is on the market. also would be nice if those how know could tell me the positive and the negative of those ECUs.
Wow. I completely forgot about this thread. Nice to see Your car again Turbo Joe. Regarding the ECUs, I think the best one is Motec. I am currently restoring my LM002 and also looking for a good standalone ECU for the Lamborghini V12. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/lamborghinichat-com-sponsored-lamborghini-houston/406745-lm002-rhd-rolling-restoration-will-updated-regularly.html Do some google research on Motec, Haltecth, etc. Personally I think I will go with Motec Cheers, Taffy
AEM trumped everyone else's products last year with their newly released Infinity EMS, however MoTeC is supposed to have just trumped the Infinity with their new M1 product. Of course being MoTeC, they cost 2x as much as anything else, too.....
frustration came up after long time waiting until I put all together and made first test drive the propeller shaft was broken. I got one from australia, very fast. so thx again to robert then last weekend I made first test drive. nearly all ok, but only nearly: between 2000 and 4000 rpm it was smoking like an old locomotive. but over 4000 rpm still a rocket, even only with 0,6 bar. so I connected my laptop to the lenz turbotronic to adjust the additional fuel injection. during this my laptop tilt and nothing goes on anymore. before I could see on the screen that I could adjust the left and the right bank. now it is only 1 bank to adjust, the other is gone also lenz is not findable and the car runs only on 6 cylinders, and that not even good. I talked to walter koenig but he also has no knowledge about this lenz turbotronic so I made on thursday a big decision: I will through all out ! ! ! the ignition and the KE-jetronic and start from new. if motec, trijekt, KMS, haltech, AEM, TEC3R or something else just now I don´t know. but all need a RPM signal. so I took out the flywheel, put it on a " some apparatus " ( the translator told me this word ) and started to mill at the flywheel. before I had to remove the starter gear ring. this is only shrunk on the flywheel. so I had to heat this ring to about 200°C and then this ring has been loosen that I could use a small hammer to knock it down. on the milling machine I milled then 60 teeth minus 2. so there are now 58 teeth and also 58 gaps, but one gap is much longer. to put the ring gear on again I had to warm it to about 200 °C. then it was so large inside that it just fall on the flywheel. I took the temperature picture shortly after I put the ring gear on and you see the temperatue still have been about 145 °C I will post more when it is going on because of the nice gift I got from an unkown user here ( thanks again )I´m able to post more pictures. so have a look Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
No disrespect Taffy, but IMO the Tec3r struggles to even run a V8, and it's very susceptible to noise. So it definitely wouldn't be on any ECU short list that I'd consider/recommend for a V12 Ferrari. It only has 8 injector circuits and 6 ignition circuits, which means batch fire on the injection side and waste spark on the ignition side, neither of which is an ideal or even acceptable (IMO) scenario for a boosted V12 Ferrari. On the "other site" we have a Ferrari V8 owner who's just turbo'd his car, and although he's been a "superuser" of EM's for years, he's changed out his TEC3r because of its noise sensitivity, plus other gremlins, to an AEM, which he couldn't get running 'cause you need a PhD in computer science to tune it, to a Haltech, which he's satisfied with. For a V12 solution in a single box, I really think only the MoTeC M800 or M1, and the AEM Infinity 12 can do it without getting into the REALLY high end stuff. I would be very wary running batch fire injection and/or a waste spark ignition on any boosted engine, but especially on a very expensive V12 Ferrari. I think you're asking for trouble. If you're willing to run 2 boxes (one for each bank of the engine), then there are any number of ECU's out there that can do it, but again, I'd avoid running a waste spark ignition setup, and I'd ensure that each box has six full outputs for the injectors, and six for the ignition.
I still have here my 2 trijekt boxes but like to sell again. there is no can bus possible. when I once checked if there would be a fully sequential or a semi-sequential ignition /injection I also thaught about the additional non used spark plug and so I decided to take two boxes. meanwhile I talked to a lot of tuners and they all say there is no problem with the double spark. also it is better for the injection because I need not so large injectors as they work double. the semi-sequential ignition only may get problems when you have in camshafts with more intersection, so both valves ( inlet and outlet ) are open too long. but usually only affects on normal aspirated engines. just now the KE jetronic delivers fuel all the time. so there is no problem to use a semi-sequential injection. but it would be good to hear here some other meanings of the specialists: fully sequential or a semi-sequential ignition /injection - pros cons please
On a low BMEP, naturally aspirated engine you can get away with a waste spark ignition because these engines don't require "that" strong a spark, however when you add boost to the setup, and the BMEP doubles, then you need the strongest ignition possible, and I believe you'll find a waste spark setup lacking. The fundamental problem with waste spark vs true sequential, is that with waste spark, every coil must charge and fire every 360 degrees of crank rotation, instead of 720 degrees, so you've lost 50% of the possible dwell time for charging. It's not an issue at idle, but at 7500 RPM, and with coils that require 6-8 msec for full saturation, it's a very real issue and you may not have enough charge time to develop a strong enough spark to light off the mixture at 1.0-1.5 bar of boost. This can be mitigated somewhat by changing to a CDI ignition, however instead of charging the coils, now a capacitor or a pair of capacitors are being charged, and have to dump their charge into the coils every 360 degrees instead of 720 degrees. Capacitors can be charged faster than the coils can directly, but you still only have half the time to charge the system that you would with a full sequential ignition. Waste spark can also be more damaging to the coils than a fully sequential system, because the coils have to fire twice as often, so there's no "dead time" for cooling. All the OEM's had waste spark with their first crank triggered ignitions because of cost, however most quietly moved away from this technology and have gone to fully sequential ignition for their latest systems. Batch or semisequential injection, IMO, isn't quite the compromise on the fuel side that waste spark is on the ignition, so if you have to compromise somewhere, this is the place to do it. But as with waste spark, even the OEM's have moved away from this older, cheaper technology and have gone fully sequential for their fueling too. With fully sequential injection and most of the medium to high end ECU's, you have the possibility to tweak individual injector trims to account for differences in air distribution between cylinders, which can be a real problem with many engines, particularly when transitioning from NA to boost, however when you're batch firing groups of injectors you don't have the possibility to tweak individual cylinder trims.
thank you for your writing john and also the explanation. I agree with all your arguments because those thinkings I already had also since I have this car. that is why I bought a while ago 2 trijekt boxes I wanted to install. but a few friends of mine are not so satisfied with those trijekt and so I thought before I start soemthing and later see it will not work like it should do. then it would be a waste of time and money. one of my friends had a 348 engine turbocharged. on the dyno with 0,85 bar 725 hp, with semisequential ignition and injection, but two injectors for each cylinder. and has absolutely no problem. see the pictures. he is one of those who also built my car. on a 2 stroke engine the coil has to fire every 360°, and those engines have more than 8000 rpm. or look at a rotary engine, much more sparks each minute. so just now I don´t know what to do or how to do it right without spending too much money. the KMS for example has te possibilty to connect 2 lambda sensors. so one for each bank and the both banks can work with 2 different ignition/injection curves. would be nice if the other specialists here also could tell the pros and cons because we have here in this forum so much concentrated knowledge. sure, finally it is my decision but the more input I will get the more I can think it all over Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
what please means BMEP ? right john, but the original coil has to bring out 3 sparks at those 360°, so 50 % more than a semisequential ignition
BMEP is a measure of specific power output of an engine per unit of displacement. Some will say it's a measure of how much stress the engine is under. I'll use imperial units because that's how I learned to use BMEP back in the 70's. Here's the equation: BMEP (psi) = 150.8 x TORQUE (lb-ft) / DISPLACEMENT (ci) Let's compare 2 engines with similar horsepower, a 325 in3 naturally aspirated American V8 out of a large SUV, and a turbocharged, 2.0 liter 4 cylinder Japanese engine that someone has built for a hotrod. Both have the same peak horsepower (325 BHP), but the BMEP's are very different. BMEP for the Chevy: (150.8 x 335)/325 = 155 psi BMEP for the Japanese engine: (150.8 x 335)/122 = 414 psi It's clear that the specific output of the Japanese engine is MUCH higher than the Chevy, and this is because of the turbocharging. This means the engine and its ancillary systems are under more "stress" than the big Chevy. Here's the website of a friend of mine that explains how to actually use these numbers: Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP): The Performance Yardstick and there are some other interesting articles here on torsional vibrations, engine development, etc. Very good reading for the tech heads.
W O W john ! thanks for explaining and also thanks for this link. very interesting but just now here early in the morning to much to read I will have a look later and read.
Your basic premise is correct, but the example is a bit of an over simplification since it equates horsepower with torque. In a real world situation that Japanese engine would be making its peak hp at a higher rpm than the Chevy's V8 so its BMEP would still be very high, but proportionately lower than 414 psi. Power and Torque: Understanding the Relationship Between the Two, by EPI Inc.
Obviously.....yes it was just an "off the cuff" example, not a real world example. In the real world there aren't many engines making a BMEP of 414 psi (for very long )
I´m looking just now for 2 electric inline fuel pumps which may deliver between 240 and 280 ltr / h at 5 bar. there is a bosch ( no. 0 580 254 044 ) - 240 ltr and a pierburg ( no. E3L 7.00228.51.0 ) - 360 ltr / h. may be somebody knows some more?
after deciding to put a map controlled system into this car I have now for sale: 2 fuel pumps bosch, 0 580 254 947 2 Metering device F no. 123411, bosch no. 0 438 101 024 with no. 3 343 591 024 and 2 437 020 008 and 0 438 121 042 2 fuel pressure regulator bosch, 0 438 161 01 F part no. 125136 2 Auxiliary air valve, bosch 0 280 140 104, F no.125880 2 Accumulator, bosch 0 428 170 042, F no. 125135 2 ECU, bosch 0 280 800 222, F no. 130477???? no cat also all fuel lines with injectors and the complete wire harness ( still original but modified from koenig ) if somebody is interested in all those parts please send a pm with your offer. I don´t want to give it away as a gift or for free. if no one has interest I will put it in ebay next week. if somebody only needs a part of all also pls send a pm, may be I can arrange some Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
