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lack sf90 interest?

Discussion in 'SF90 Stradale' started by 95spiderman, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,058
    Australia
    Wait WHAT!! Sorry i missed this gem.
    So you’re saying that the only thing distinguishing the car as being ferrari - you don’t like?? This is good Zeus even coming from you!! But to be fair they NEED the grille to look like that or everyone would straight away think its an f type jag or an Aston with no other means than the small Ferrari badge to differentiate. I actually thought the grille worked very well in establishing brand recognition! And the car also has relatively good clean lines without necessity to draw unwanted attention to it - as in no need for any clown nosing etc.
     
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  2. Astrid.Didier

    Astrid.Didier Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2019
    598
    I admit it, ZEUS hates the ROMA's grille :DI can confirm this!! :D At that time his first reaction to the ROMA surprised me too! but ZEUS disagrees with Chris Harris for saying that the car is identical to an Aston Martin !:eek:
     
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  3. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,058
    Australia
    #278 Shadowfax, Dec 28, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
    I think you’ll find Zeus is just putting on a show to make out he’s being fair. It’s a bit like complaining about the valve caps on the car. He’s blown his cred with this grille thing I’m afraid. I mean in one hand he’s slamming Harris for calling the design out as belonging to Aston - which was a very fair and reasonable call - and in the next breath he’s critising the grille which is really the only distinguishing feature linking the entire car to the Ferrari brand. I dunno. I think he’s inadvertently dug himself into a hole he won’t be able to jump out of this time. I forgive him though. Plenty wont.:D And Ferrari may have second thoughts about giving him that golden horse logie now if they read that. And that would be quite devastating given all the hard work he’s put in defending them.
     
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  4. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    May 2, 2005
    1,956
    Earth
    Not sure I can comment on the difference between the 918 layout and the SF90 as havn't researched that. Also having seen the Taycan F2F its an expensive abomination of epic proportions and just terrible, so no comparison there - again my opinion only.

    Best wait to drive the car Shadow and yes it will never see Hobart :)
     
  5. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    Mar 3, 2012
    2,032
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    Still loving the SF90 look here but happy that some don’t. Can’t think why some are saying it should have been ICE only - have you not been watching what has been going on in the world? Leave ICE to Roma and Pista/F8, this car is all about the future and the existential question of what a Ferrari should be like in an age that wants all cars to be very low or no CO2. The tech will be great on the SF90 because they will put plenty of effort in - this car has had just the development mules running around for longer than it takes Ferrari to run a normal design and build programme and it is still a way away from customer production. As ever, they are fighting for their lives so I’m betting it will be better than good. We’ll see, won’t we? No point arguing about it now.

    Can’t say about depreciation but if they want the car to be successful, given they know all about the current sales climate, they will be careful with volume. ‘Normal’ Ferrari depreciation is acceptable and not everyone feels as strongly as the voices on this thread. When the press tests and marketing hype get under way we’ll get a better picture. The order book is supposedly full (meaning ‘what?’ is difficult to tell) but if they match production to sales it is the press driving and general hype about the car at that time that sells the used ones. This is something nobody knows yet so predicting residuals is a bit premature, excepting that some markets have high taxation issues.

    Regarding the price direction, choosing this route (higher than F8 rather than lower) is so obvious it is almost not worth commenting on. They are focusing on profit per unit not a massive increase in production. Building hybrid tech into a 911 competitor will be massively expensive on a per unit basis and they have much lower selling price and margin to play with so would need huge volumes in a market they are less familiar with and have a very powerful competitor in (Porsche). They believe their brand is above all and Lambo have been selling the Aventador line at a good £100k/$150k more than the F8 for years, a mid-engined competitor to Aventador, with high per unit margins and expensive hybrid tech makes the best sense and leaves their more expensive models with the most power, most speed, most modern technology. You might not agree but it was never going to be different and it also makes the most sense for the least risk.

    Oh, and I love the Roma look too! Not buying one but it makes the Portofino suddenly look quite dated. It’s a bit AM but maybe that has more to do with the general proportions of the genre. There is certainly enough in there to mark it out as a Ferrari. The grille maybe.....!!
     
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  6. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    5,852
    Bournemouth, UK
    Are you referring to the giant cheese grater in lieu of a grille? :D We clearly have a very different taste in cars...


    Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some might call that uninspired and boring.
     
  7. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 Veteran
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    They believe their brand is above all and Lambo have been selling the Aventador line at a good £100k/$150k more than the F8 for years, a mid-engined competitor to Aventador, with high per unit margins and expensive hybrid tech makes the best sense and leaves their more expensive models with the most power, most speed, most modern technology. You might not agree but it was never going to be different and it also makes the most sense for the least risk.[/QUOTE]

    Yes new aventador coming soon. It will compete directly against sf90 and probably have some kind of energy recovery system too. Will be interesting to follow. However, at this point just give me a svj roadster and we can call it a day!
     
  8. ferrarifanatic25

    ferrarifanatic25 Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2009
    721
    OC
    Yes new aventador coming soon. It will compete directly against sf90 and probably have some kind of energy recovery system too. Will be interesting to follow. However, at this point just give me a svj roadster and we can call it a day![/QUOTE]

    Agreed that Ferrari was missing a model to take on the Aventador, but the SF90 is vastly more expensive than the Aventador and as such misses that opportunity by a significant margin.

    From what it sounds like, nicely specced examples will run $750k with potential to be pushing $900k. For that price you could have 2 Huracans and an Aventador, not to mention 3x as expensive as F8/LB. The point being, this car is in a whole new price segment altogether that no car maker has ever entered with a regular production car. Typically the higher model segment runs around 150% of the lower level model. Ex. Huracan starts around $265k and Aventador starts around $420k. SF90 base price is already 2x that of an F8 and can easily exceed 3x with the AF pack and other options (these are rough estimates as I do not have the exact pricing sheets right in front of me).

    Also note that the price of a car and the buyer pool that can afford it (and wishes to buy such an item) does not have a linear relationship. Instead, as price goes up the number of people who can afford take on such a loss goes down exponentially. Remember, this is a regular production model and is not expected to hold its value or appreciate. Buyers will have to be willing to write-off $100k+ / yr in depreciation in order to play this game. This is not a balance sheet item, it’s a full on luxury expense.

    Do I believe there are still enough people with the willingness and pockets to buy out the first round of allocations at this price point? Yes. But do I think they will be able to sell 2,000 units/yr over the next 5 years like the Aventador? Absolutely not. Not at this price.

    Maybe I’m wrong and the new Aventador enters the same price bracket. If that’s the case, then I’m convinced we’ve got a bubble in the exotic car market as this sort of incredible price inflation cannot be sustained for long. Too much product being pushed out and not nearly enough demand, especially in an era where being seen driving one of these will soon be considered social suicide by the mass media.



    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  9. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    3,141
    France
    The published base price (in Europe) for the SF90 is 80% more than the base price of the F8. 80% is close to 100%, so that the SF90 is about twice the price of the F8. But options have no reasons to make things worse (logically, it should be the other way round), so this ratio of 2 for 1 should be closer to reality than 3 to 1.
    But still with this 2 for 1 ratio, certainly the addressable market for the SF90 is far lower than for for the F8 - because the distribution of wealth is not proportional, you get a far lower percentage of people able / willing to spend twice the money for a car.
     
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  10. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    May 2, 2005
    1,956
    Earth
    In high tax zones there is a different view as to whats expensive and whats not. Its all relative. I priced up a relatively sparse on options, SF90 and it came in at 540k CHF (no AF pack). For a car of this magnitude being maybe 120k CHF over a 812SF that not too bad. At this level people either have enough to not care and spec the car to limit or for those who swop cars regularly maybe one needs to be a bit careful on options.

    Anyway we rationalise things the way we want to and the above is my current thinking :)
     
  11. F142George

    F142George Karting
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    Jun 26, 2014
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    George
    Agreed that Ferrari was missing a model to take on the Aventador, but the SF90 is vastly more expensive than the Aventador and as such misses that opportunity by a significant margin.

    From what it sounds like, nicely specced examples will run $750k with potential to be pushing $900k. For that price you could have 2 Huracans and an Aventador, not to mention 3x as expensive as F8/LB. The point being, this car is in a whole new price segment altogether that no car maker has ever entered with a regular production car. Typically the higher model segment runs around 150% of the lower level model. Ex. Huracan starts around $265k and Aventador starts around $420k. SF90 base price is already 2x that of an F8 and can easily exceed 3x with the AF pack and other options (these are rough estimates as I do not have the exact pricing sheets right in front of me).

    Also note that the price of a car and the buyer pool that can afford it (and wishes to buy such an item) does not have a linear relationship. Instead, as price goes up the number of people who can afford take on such a loss goes down exponentially. Remember, this is a regular production model and is not expected to hold its value or appreciate. Buyers will have to be willing to write-off $100k+ / yr in depreciation in order to play this game. This is not a balance sheet item, it’s a full on luxury expense.

    Do I believe there are still enough people with the willingness and pockets to buy out the first round of allocations at this price point? Yes. But do I think they will be able to sell 2,000 units/yr over the next 5 years like the Aventador? Absolutely not. Not at this price.

    Maybe I’m wrong and the new Aventador enters the same price bracket. If that’s the case, then I’m convinced we’ve got a bubble in the exotic car market as this sort of incredible price inflation cannot be sustained for long. Too much product being pushed out and not nearly enough demand, especially in an era where being seen driving one of these will soon be considered social suicide by the mass media.



    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app[/QUOTE]

    Not true, the MSRP in the UK is confirmed at 370-375k pounds, even after AF pack plus some extras here and there its only around $588k USD after 20% VAT. Price in the UK for high option SF90 is basically same as SVJ.
     
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  12. Thecadster

    Thecadster Formula 3
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    Apr 27, 2017
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    Doesn’t seem like the new Aventador is ever going to arrive...
     
  13. Thecadster

    Thecadster Formula 3
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    I like the SF90, but what do I know? I like the 812 too...
     
  14. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    14,365
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  15. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 Veteran
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    Why not? With vw money behind it? And success of uris? There will be aventador
     
  16. Thecadster

    Thecadster Formula 3
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    Not wondering about if, just when... I have an early build slot for when it happens. There’s been many starts/stops with tons of misinformation. Use to be it that speculation was heavy on the Lamborghini boards, but now everyone’s resigned to see it when they see it.
     
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  17. F142George

    F142George Karting
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    Jun 26, 2014
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    Marcel, keep in mind that is with 246k worth of extras basically every option ticked plus some not on the current options list. A well optioned SF90 AF wouldn't need all 246k worth of options. List is still USD 450 K. US Aventador list is around 420 K so not much over a standard aventador coupe. If you fully loaded an Aventador S, it would fetch close to $700k USD as well.
     
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  18. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Jun 12, 2007
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    $650k SPF90 vs $1.3M for used 918...and which will be quicker around a circuit?
     
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  19. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    3,141
    France
    A 488 is also faster than an Enzo - but the Enzo is still more expensive.
    When comparing different generations, performance is somewhat anecdotal to determine value.
     
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  20. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 Veteran
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    i wouldnt be so sure. put 918 and sf90 on same michelin psc2r and i bet its a very close race
     
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  21. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Jun 12, 2007
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    I was asking. Likely very close.
    I can’t see 918 or p1 holding up at all >$1M
     
  22. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula Junior

    Oct 3, 2017
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    Agree on 918 but I suspect P1’s will hold.
     
  23. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
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    I would be a buyer for a P1 or a 918 if they get below $1M. I think I might lean toward the 918 regardless of track times.
     
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  24. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula Junior

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    Aside from a slight rarity advantage, I don’t see why a 918 should be more desirable than a CGT over the long term, and those are at $700k.
     
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  25. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Agree. I see cgt as far more desirable long term.
     
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