LaFerrari replacement: v12, no hybrid, less power than SF90stradale?

Also forgot wrote, when you go down on official Ferrari page https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/auto/f80 there is clean soundtrack of F80

Here is direct link https://ferrari-cdn.thron.com/static/O7BZLG_SOUND_ferrari-f80_6W0Z6C.mp3?xseo=

 

so maybe F80 should have only electric motor? then not only police will be happy but also this lunatis from "just stop oil"
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Every masterpiece has its cheap copy

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C_VgY34Shay

 

I promised to share an interesting tech detail related to F80. Unfortunately I didn't find enough verified information so the following info is just a speculative one.

Anyway, I find it rather interesting that F80 might actually produce more downforce than Aston Martin Valkyrie. Valkyrie was initially designed to produce 1800 kg, but its suspension was not able to cope with the forces, so they had to reduce max downforce to 1100 kg level. While this level is reached impressively already at 220 km/h, the active aerodynamics make sure this figure is not exceeded even of speed increases further.

Now Ferrari has stated 1050 kg downforce @ 250 km/h for F80. However, it has not been mentioned that downforce would not increase further when speed increases. So in theory F80 could eclipse Valkyrie's maximum downforce already at 256 km/h (1101 kg).

Some press articles also claim that Valkyrie's max downforce (1100 kg) is reached during braking and maximum cornering downforce is only 750 kg. Not sure what to think about this, but then again, I don't know for sure either if the max figure for F80 is also reached during braking.

 

The downforce on modern hypercars is limited by the load capacity of the tires (maximum tire load -/- vehicle weight = maximum downforce). Watch this Adrian Newey interview at 8m00s. "[The tires] are the primary limiting factor on ultimately the downforce you can generate and to an extent the performance of the car." The F80 is heavier than the Valkyrie, so cannot exceed the (maximum) downforce of the Valkyrie.

 

F80 has 2 cm wider tyres (both front and rear), so that could possibly allow a bit more load. But then again, F80 weights more. But it is also a question of how load is divided between front and rear. F80 might be creating more downforce at the front due to AWD, so it could have actually margin to go over Valkyrie's max limit on total downforce.

 

I have no hard facts either way, but the clue is in the figure given by Ferrari and no other (higher) figures being given. If they could brag about something, they would. The GMA T.50s (the track version) creates up to 1,200 kg of downforce, and it's a very lightweight car (a little over 900 kg).

All these manufacturers have access to similar tire technology, a slightly wider tire is not going to matter (and adds drag). Apparently 1,050 kg of downforce is just the limit with the F80 being 1,525 kg dry weight (add fluids, driver and passenger).

More relevant perhaps than maximum downforce (this is not a game of Top Trumps for kids) is downforce efficiency, i.e. downforce versus drag.

 

Theoretically downforce increases with speed (to the square), but after a certain point and speed it becomes a hindrance, as you alluded to in your sentence. It is not only the fact that it puts too much stress on suspension and tyres, but the car becomes slower overall, as the reduction in top end speed and acceleration outweighs the increase in grip. That is probably why the F80 starts to bleed off downforce and thus drag above 250 kph, as does the Valkyrie. You can also see it in F1, where in tracks with longer straights and higher speeds, they put on less downforce and drag, utilising shallower rear wings. Aero efficiency is paramount, more so than downforce, as you rightly said yourself.

 

Yes, there must be more at play than just the numbers. I can't find a photo of the load rating on the F80 Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2, but a AMG One front wheel has for example Extra Load tires that are index 103 (875 kg) and the 'regular' Cup 2s are 20 inch 285 = 99 (775 kg) and 21 inch 325 (no 345 standard) = 108 (1000 kg), though 345 20 inch is only 106 (950 kg).

Let's assume the F80 gets Extra Load tires at the front of let's say 103, and 108 at the back. That is 875 + 875 + 1000 + 1000 = 3750 kg maximum load at speed Y = 300 km/h. Take away dry weight of 1525, another 200 kg for occupants and then fuel another 60 kg or so, some luggage, and theoretically you have around 1,900 kg left for downforce, unless I'm missing something.

Michelin says: "The tyre speed rating indicates the maximum speed at which a tyre can carry its maximum load." Theoretically a hypercar weighing 1500 kg fully loaded with similar load ratings as above could have 2,250 kg of downforce, but there has to be more to it than that when all of them sit around 1,100 kg downforce, even a lightweight car like T.50s. And the AMG One supposedly only has 700 kg of downforce. Maybe the discrepancy is average load versus peak load, maybe the suspension is also a limiting factor, maybe it's about drag like REALZEUS points out, maybe all of the above.

I haven't studied the subject enough to offer more insight, but I don't think rating or comparing the F80 on maximum downforce is meaningful unless you are an engineer.

 

I am curious to know what the downforce curve at varying km/hr ; mph looks like.

 

I would be interested too, but on a car like the AMG One there isn't really a downforce curve, the active aero changes all the time depending on what you are doing, as can be seen on the Nordschleife lap, and depends on your drive mode too. As their website mentions:

Even the basic body has been aerodynamically designed for maximum downforce and balance. And this move has been a successful one: the Mercedes-AMG ONE generates downforce from as low as 50 km/h, which becomes increasingly stronger as the speed increases.
(...)
The active flaps on the front diffuser influence the aerodynamic performance at the front axle and ensure excellent aerodynamic balance. The active air vents (so-called louvres) in the front wheel arches also increase the downforce on the front axle.
(...)
Active aerodynamics: three interpretations to choose from
The active, hydraulically controlled aerodynamics increase downforce on the front and rear axles and also improve aerodynamic efficiency. Depending on the driver's preference and the selected drive program, three different aerodynamic setups are available:

"Highway" in the "Race Safe", "Race", "EV" and "Individual" drive programs:
the louvres are closed, the active flaps on the front diffuser are extended and the rear wing including flap is retracted.
"Track" in the drive programs "Race Plus" and "Strat 2" (both only allowed on the race track):
the front diffuser flaps fold up to shape the front diffuser contour to maximum efficiency. The rear wing extends fully, as does the rear wing flap. The louvres are opened to increase the downforce on the front axle and to increase the negative pressure in the wheel arches. The vehicle is lowered by 37 millimetres at the front axle and 30 millimetres at the rear axle. The consequence of all these measures: the total downforce increases up to five times compared with the road drive programs, depending on the speed.
"Race DRS" (Drag Reduction System), can be activated at the touch of a button as in Formula 1, in the race track drive programs:
the rear wing flap retracts completely and the louvres are closed. Although this reduces downforce by around 20 percent, the Mercedes-AMG ONE reaches high speeds even faster. DRS can be deactivated manually or is automatically deactivated as soon as the driver brakes or lateral acceleration is measured.

This illustrates how extremely downforce can vary, and then you can vary it more with the DRS. Not just a simple matter of downforce versus speed. The F80 has less active aero obviously, but there are still some active components besides the rear wing.

Aerodynamics play a key role on the F80, with solutions such as the active rear wing, rear diffuser, flat underbody, front triplane wing and S-Duct working in concert to generate 1000 kg of downforce at 250 km/h. This result is further enhanced thanks to the active suspension, which contributes directly to generating ground effect.
(...)
AERODYNAMICS

The F80 pushes aerodynamic performance to levels never seen before on a Ferrari road car, as testified by the 1000 kg of downforce produced at 250 km/h. This astonishing achievement was made possible by perfect symbiosis between all the internal Ferrari departments working on the definition of the car’s architecture; for each department, the perfect balance between downforce and top speed was the basis for every design choice, giving shape to a suite of extreme solutions befitting a true supercar.

The front end of the F80, which develops 460 kg of total downforce at 250 km/h, was inspired by the aerodynamic concepts employed in Formula 1 and the World Endurance Championship (WEC), innovatively reinterpreted for this application to become cornerstones of the entire design. On the one hand, the recumbent racing driving position allowed for a chassis with a high centre keel, while on the other, the cooling system layout has freed up the entire central portion of the vehicle, maximising the space usable for other functions.

The body-coloured central volume of the nose acts as the generously-sized main plane of the front wing. Inside the S-Duct are two flaps following the main profile to complete the triplane wing configuration with curvatures and blower slots clearly inspired by the 499P. Crucial for the aerodynamic efficacy of the front of the vehicle is the way the triplane works in perfect concert with the S-Duct and the high central keel, minimising blockage of the air flow towards the wing and maximising performance.

As a result, the air flow from the underbody and bumper undergoes violent vertical expansion and is redirected within the duct towards the front bonnet, generating a potent upwash which translates into a powerful low-pressure zone under the underbody. This accounts for 150 of the 460 kg of the maximum downforce generated at the front of the car which, however, is very sensitive to changes in ground clearance. The aerodynamic balance of the car is therefore ensured by the active suspension, which controls the attitude of the vehicle in real time and adjusts the distance between the underbody and the road in response to driving conditions.

The volume freed up under the feet of the driver also made room for three pairs of bargeboards. These devices generate powerful, concentrated vortices which introduce a velocity component to the airflow field in the outwash direction. In addition to improving the underbody’s suction, the outwash also reduces blockage and improves the performance of the front triplane. The bargeboards also help mitigate the detrimental effects of the wake of the front wheel by confining it and keeping it away from the undertbody, preventing contamination of the air flow directed to the rear of the car.

The aerodynamic performance of the rear zone of the car, which generates the remaining 590 kg of downforce at 250 km/h, is a result of the combined action of the rear wing-diffuser system. The efficiency of this system is highly dependent on the quantity of downforce produced by the underbody, as this has very little impact on drag.

To take the performance of the diffuser of the F80 to extreme levels, the expansion volume of the diffuser itself has been maximised by inclining the engine-gearbox unit by 1.3° in the Z axis, and by the configuration of the rear chassis and suspension components. The starting point of the upward curvature of the diffuser has been brought forward, resulting in a diffuser measuring a record-breaking 1800 mm in length, which generates a huge low-pressure zone underneath the vehicle, which in turn draws a massive flow of air into the underbody area.

The geometry of the chassis, with narrow, curved sills, contributes to creating an aerodynamic seal effect around the underbody by forming a duct that captures the flow adhering to the flank and blows air into the interior of the rear wheelarch housing under the lower suspension arm. The interaction between this air flow and the outer strake of the diffuser interferes with the vortices generated in the wheel-road contact zone, preventing air from entering the diffuser too far forwards. These solutions work in such perfect harmony that the downforce generated by the diffuser alone is 285 kg, or more than 50% of the total downforce on the rear axle.

The active wing is the most visually distinctive aero feature of the F80, which completes the entire aerodynamic concept of the vehicle. The actuator system of the rear wing adjusts not only its height but also controls angle of attack continuously and dynamically, for precisely modulable downforce and drag. In the High Downforce (HD) configuration, which is used during braking, turn-in and cornering, the wing assumes an angle of 11° relative to the direction of the air flow to generate over 180 kg of downforce at 250 km/h.

At the extreme opposite of its range of rotation, the wing is in Low Drag (LD) configuration, with the leading edge pitched upwards. Drag is much lower in this configuration, not only because of the reduction in lift, but also due to the tractive effect generated by the residual low-pressure zone impinging on the underside of the wing itself.

The rear wing is the keystone of the entire adaptive aero system, allowing the F80 to adapt to any possible dynamic conditions, which are monitored and evaluated in real time by the vehicle control systems. In response to the requests of the driver in terms of acceleration, speed and steering angle, the system determines the optimal blend of downforce, aerodynamic balance and drag, and tells the active suspension and active aero systems to implement the ideal attitude accordingly. In the case of the aero system, this means controlling the angle of attack of the rear wing and the activation state of the Active Reverse Gurney flap under the front triplane.

With its two different configurations, the flap also allows control over downforce and drag at the front of the car: the closed position generates maximum downforce, while in the open position the device is at right angles to the air flow and, similarly to how DRS systems work in Formula 1, stalls the underbody to reduce drag and let the car reach a higher top speed.

 

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/supercars/ferrari-fxx-k-evo-numbers

Just read some data of FXX K Evo from top gear.

Downforce
FXX K Evo 640kg at 200km/h
F80 1050kg at 250km/h

Fiorano lap time
FXX K 1:14
FXX K Evo 1:13(Predicted)
F80 1:15.3

Weight
FXX K 1255kg
F80 1525kg

Tyre
FXX K 10,000th Pirelli P Zero (Slick!?)
F80 K1 MICHELIN Pilot Sport Cup 2 R

I can imagine if we put slick tyres on F80, it could beat a track only Ferrari race car which is 270kg lighter. In terms of performance, Ferrari did an amazing job. When Laferrari came out, it was far slower than FXX.

Fiorano lap time
FXX 1:16
Laferrari 1:19

Forget the controversial design, F80 is definitely a road version track car. And it will be far easier to control and fun to drive. Also no noise issue haha.

 

Only 1.3s delta between the F80 and FXXK seems impressive given the slick tyres and lower weight on the FXXK.

 

I would love F80’s black line, as well as 812 Competizione’s black line.

 

The new T-50 is the car I wish the F80 was.

 

Except for the rear end

To be honest, Ferrari has no interest of including such a model in their lineup. The T50 offers the best driving experience of all new cars at the moment, but the hypercar from Ferrari needs to be as fast as possible and as technologically advanced as possible, so basically at the very opposite end of the spectrum.

 

too slow for the modern ferrari buyer unfortutently

 

How would daytona sp3 compare to GMA offerings if the Daytona had a stick shift? GMA has the revs but Daytona has the looks.

 

I think the T33 looks pretty clean in the sense that it is looks like it was designed by Braun or another industrial designer. It lacks the character of the Daytona SP3. But would likely wipe the floor dynamically.

 

I would take sp3 because it's looks are going to be more of a step up from GMA than gma dynamics are advantage over Ferrari. Assumes sp3 is stick shift too

 

I would be up for it if they offered me one and I know several other long time F clients that have T50s…

 

A car slower than the 11 year old LaFerrari? Nice...

 

How could the T50 design ever be Ferrari’s hyper car? Wishing the F80 were the T50 is completely unnecessary because GMA already sell the T50. People can buy that. One might ask a separate question (debated earlier), that Ferrari should do their own V12, manual, lightweight car. But, as said before, they just wouldn’t do it as well as Gordon Murray, a genius who oversees every element of the vehicle’s design and development. Ferrari haven’t done it that way for years, maybe ever. Even the 250 GTO had a Colombo engine and coach work by Scaglietti, who wasn’t even an employee. The T50 is brilliant precisely because the big boys, like Ferrari, couldn’t do it. Ferrari are not super-human and have no divine right to be all things to all men. Better for them to stick to their lane and do what they do best.

T50 has always seemed like a risky purchase to me but for those prepared to take the risk, they will get probably the only serious car on sale where a lone designer’s vision is translated directly into metal, plastic and glass. Ferrari, Porsche, Aston, Lambo, McLaren etc. all have existing tech, design and development strategies, production constraints, higher volume considerations to think about. It will be a wonderful experience to commission an T50 and also wonderful (hopefully) to own it afterwards, for those who are doing it.