Lamenting the loss of the regular production mid-engine V12 Ferrari...

LOL


Alot of the "buyers" of the 12's want refinement and practicality. The front engine car has those traits. Most of these "buyers" happen to be men over 50 years old.

 

I think with the larger models Ferrari is going the mid-front engine route, long bonnet Ferraris.

But for what it's worth, I heard that the F430 replacement will have a compact V12 engine (as all next gen Ferrari models will have engines derived from the Enzo's).

And with the Dino/Project California becoming reality, it will be the new entry-level model, so there's no need for the next generation mid-engined model to be the entry-level anymore.

However, I think the flagship will always be the front-engined (now mid-front engined), with mid-engined super Ferraris like the Enzo as the ultimate models..

But with the Gallardo already a V10, its replacement will have no fewer than 10 cylinders and with Porsche coming with a new flagship model line, a mid-engined V8/V10 - spiritual successor to the CarreraGT - codenamed E3 (E2 is Panamera), I would bet that we will see a V12 in the F430's replacement, probably with a 4.0L or 5.0L of displacement..

 

IN MY OPINION, the loss of the mid-V12 production Ferrari is purely down to Ferrari recognising exactly what their PRIMARY customers base wants...

A CRUSIER with a Ferrari badge.

Over recent years we have seen: taller, less sexy/graceful Ferraris (think 355 Vs 360), paddle gearboxes with "auto" options, neutered V12 engine notes, traction control systems, softer suspension setups (remember the early 575s - what a disaster), ugly raised noses etc for ground clearance (look at the way a stock 430 sits on it's wheels.....), e-diff systems to GUARANTEE understeer (why has it been binned in the 430 C??) elec seats, sunroofs (??).

Many of you no doubt will say these items make the new Ferrari better cars and you're probably right but the key thing the V12 Ferrari has lost is that VISCERAL excitement - the ability to thrill.....that EVENT and racing heart beat. We try to inject some of it back in (look at the numbers of us with Tubi exhausts etc) but it's still missing....
I mean, a stock 575M is more a rival to an SL55/65 really - an amazingly talents cruiser. However, jump into a Murcielago, move the buyer age-group down a couple of DECADES and re-live that old school supercar thrill.

Ferrari do make the odd drivers car (the fab 360 CS) and a few token efforts to spruce up their other offerings (HGTC pack on 575M) but in reality Ferraris are getting softer and softer.
I MEAN THEY SELL MORE 360/430 SPIDERS THAN HARD TOPS!!!!

They used to be macho and SEXY, requiring skill from the driver to extract the best (look at the BB series - THAT'S a Ferrari).... but now.....?

Still, that's what WE (the buyers) want. So I don't blame the company.

 

nik,

accurate statement but unfortunately it is what it is.

 

No argument here... but pray tells me: How many opportunities do you have to drive any car in such a way? Not familiar with your local roads (or any US road as a matter of fact) but at least in Europe these are rare and far between. The best way to get these thrills, for most UK residents at least, is pack a bag, and hit the German Autobahn where the 575 is in its elements... or the mountain passes in the alps. Now I have not drove a 430 in these mountain passes (I am sure it would be more thrilling and sporty then the 575) neither did I have the privilege to do it in a Lambo. I am sure the Lambo would be fun but I cannot help wondering how such a wide and low car will deal with these narrow and badly surfaced roads. Either way, the basic truth is - you need somewhere to put the aforementioned bag somewhere.

I am still far from 50 (have not reached 40 yet) ut life are full with practical compromises. If you take a random sample of 100 people, I doubt they will look at the 575 as a practical, family man, sensible car. It is however practical enough to enjoy it. Practicality no object, the Lambo is the best looking car in the world. But I preferred a car that can be used and enjoyed anywhere, everywhere, anytime. I nearly got a Gallardo but simply could not see myself doing a 3000 miles trans-European tour with it.

 

The 365P was the best looking mid-engine 12 cylinder Ferrari ever made IMHO..and, it had three seats to boot. Now that's what Ferrari needs to make again!

 

Nice thread to be started with a first post. Quite thoughtful. Anyway, that 512M is a definite improvement over the stock wheels IMO. It would be nice to have a mid engine 12 cylinder model with ulyimate performance, and maybe take the current mid 8 down a notch to make it more attainable price wise.
BT

 

Put me down for the missing-the-mid-engined-12 group.

In particular, bring back the flat-12, which IMO is the nicest sounding engine I've ever heard. A TR with straight pipes and a borla at full song... I wish Ferrari would have made that a tradition just as Porsche has done with the flat-6. Performance is a moot point on the street, front or mid engined makes no difference as you can never use more than a few tenths of either, it's all about the thrill, and for me that was found in the 512 (and 365) series.

I actually somewhat dislike the useability of the newer models. It clouds the use of the Fcar. I'd rather have it clear when I need to take the Jeep and when I can take the Ferrari.

 

I have been a defender of Ferrari and their current approach, but every time a see a Testarossa out on the road I melt in a way that NONE of the current Ferraris can do. I would love to see another mid-engined 12 cylinder model.

 

I'd be a player for that set up.Some Manufacturer will do it. Just to be one up on everybody

 

The 575 had the most dissapointing sound ever, Mercedes S600 Turbine quiet. Heck, the Aston DB7/Vanquish V-12 sounds MILES better.

IMO. 575/600 should be ditched as the 612 provides all the GT comfort (both cars are too similiar hence the slow selling 612) AND extra 2 seats. A new Testarossa should be commisioned.

 

Reading these posts has led me to the conclusion that "Ferrari" means different things to different people, and there is no clear view of what a "Ferrari" is. Let's look at common ground.

A Ferrari must look cool. Those that don't, no matter what else they may be, miss the mark. Opinions vary on the new crop (but then they varied on the older crops too!)

A Ferrari must be exclusive. Well, in spite of ever increased production, they still are.

A Ferrari must be fast and powerful. They are.

Now we diverge. Is a Ferrari a small, tossable sports car that an accomplished driver can appriciate? Is it a GT car to go hundreds of highway miles fast and in comfort? Is it a thinly desguised race car that's street legal?

We've seen Ferrari make all three. Some people are stuck thinking they should just be one thing or one other thing. The company tries to appeal to all three groups, as it always has. Perhaps the only thing they lack today IS the small tossable purpose built sports car that normal Ferrari buyers can afford.

So, how about it? A small mid engine 12? Bring it on!

Ken

 

The problem with the previous mid-engine 12 cylinder cars was that they were too big to be great sports cars, and not usable enough to be great GT cars.

What Ferrari has done is to build great sports cars (the 430 series) which happen to be V-8, and great GT cars (the 575 and 612) which are V-12s. If they decide that they can build a better sports car using a V-12 than the current V-8 then I'm all for it.

I'm not for bringing back the nostalgia wedge styling, however! Anyone for bringing back the plaid interiors from the 365GTC/4?

 

the 8 cylinder ferrari's are gutless no grunt and to many electronic driving aids they are made for rich city people not proper drivers like the old ones also you can maintain older cars yourself wait till the 430 is 10 years old with a few electrical problems it will be a throw away item

 

If I may interject some here. If Ferrari built road cars solely for the purpose of funding thier racing dept., then what we get is what we get. History shows us that those at the top of the food chain were allowed special priviledges that the more common among us just simply are not allowed. Obviously there are Ferrari's for the mundane, and there are those Challenging factory cars for the more advanced. And you can always strip it and make it a racer, which somehow I think the old man would enjoy.

But in comparison of today to yesterday, look at a old 250 Lusso. Pretty ashtray, a cigar lighter, map pockets, pretty trunk, basically a well provided road car. So by those standards one can see Ferrari providing the Kings and Queens of the world with thier shiney carriage. But for the ones asking for more, Ferrari provided Challenge cars, the 288, the F40, F50, etc. And I think that if anyone had a friend at the factory, with appropriate $$$$$ you could probably get anything you wanted.

 

This is true. What they need to do is make a 3 liter 12 like they used to in the old, olden days. It would be small, light and a real screamer with today's technology! 9k RPM's at least, 400 HP easily. And mounted amidships it would be the heart of what could be a small, light, fantasitic sports car.

Ken

 

I think our only hope of that is for somebody small, like Ariel or Radical to step up. Maybe Ultima. The big manufacturers have gotten so far out of touch with younger (acting) enthusiasts that it's hopeless IMO.

 

i couldnt agree more...my friend just bought a 575, and was disappointed in its mercedes s class like exhaust note...just too refined, so we put a tubi in..a nice improvement, but it still doesnt compare to my cousins 512tr with a tubi...btw, the db9 and the vanquish have great stock exhaust notes, better than stock ferraris....the 600 and 612 do seem redundant, i would love to see a mid engine 12cyclinder...nothing beats the handling of a mid engine car and the thrill of 12cyclinders just behind your head screaming...have driven the 550 and 575 several times, i can say that it is a great gt car..its well made and fast and comfortable....but it doenst have that thrilling ferrari -exotic sensation a mid engine car can give....i quess we have to go to lambo for the wonderful murci and smaller gallardo if we want more than a v8 midengine car...

 

we have twisty and hilly country roads not more than 20 miles from washington dc, just outside my door of my house, where a ferrari or lambo or any fast, good handling sports car can be enjoyed...this and the track is what sporty and fun driving is about...driving in a straight line on the autobahn or the highway is boring to me...no need more a ferrari here, just get a high hp mercedes amg car and you are good to go ...also if you want to be practical and sensible, perhaps exotic cars like lambo and ferrari are not what you should buy.....

 

Andy,

I agree 110%! I pretty much like all Ferrari's but some are certainly better then others. When I see a 550/575 I go "ooow" "aaaw" but they don't have the same sexy appeal as the "Testarossa" did. How many kids have a 550/575 poster in their room? Probably very few compared to the "Testarossa".

The kids of today are tomorrow’s buyers. How many present "Testarossa" owners had the poster and the dream back when?

DrewH

 

I guess there are degrees of practical and sensible. My previous car was an M5 which was too practical and too sensible and even going on the autobahn is a completely different experience in a Ferrari comparing to any a German bahnstormer.

What I want is a car I can use. I see no point having a car I cannot use whenever I have a long trip down the continent because its too wide / too low to go on board the ferry / too small boot to carry my luggage. I do not want to use my second car 80% of the time. I want to use (and thus enjoy) my supercar 100% of the time which is why I accept that it is only 80% as enjoyable as a Murci.

I do not believe in a weekend fun car (and that's a very personal thing of course). I do not want to drive for the sake of driving. I want to drive for the sake of travelling and do that in the most enjoyable car I can that will still do the job.

Every car is a compromise... Pagani Zonda excluded - maybe (have not driven one but so I have been told) and I am sure that even the Zonda has a 'compromised' boot space. Convincing your other half that you need an Fcar is easy comparing to convince her to take less shoes because you simply do not have the luggage space
Taking a car for an hour drive in the twisties is one thing. Nearly living in the car for two days is a completely different thing so it all really comes to taste and preferences. For the 575 money I could have easily had a 355 + my old M5. Travelling across Europe, doing 600 miles a day sometimes, I would not have enjoyed either as much as I enjoyed the 575.

Having said all that, I wish the 575 did have the engine in the right place...

 

I am one of those "Kids" that grew up with a TR poster on the wall. I have been fortunate enough to turn that dream into a reality many times since then. Out of the 10+ Ferraris I have owned in the last 15 years, the ONLY one I did not LOVE in a PASSIONATE kind of way, was my 550 Maranello. While I agree it was very fast, to me, I could have been driving a MB or BMW coupe. The "WOW" factor just was not there. Neither visually, nor the driving experience. Dont get me wrong, I can appreciate it like I do all Ferraris, however I do agree with many of the sentiments above, that Ferrari are catering two model lines to the cruiser GT crowd, and there are many of us that would like to see that reduced to one. Personally, thats the last Ferrari that I will buy, with the engine in front.

 

I've always prefered the look of a front engine car. It just has more of the classic proportions. It would be nice to have both. a Front engine GT and a mid mounted V-12 in production.

 

IMO there's a bit more to it. I think the problem is first and foremost the first time you see a Ferrari you should say Wow.
275 GTB
250 GTO
250 LM
250 SWB
P's
Daytona
365 BB
288 GTO
F40

Both front and mid engine cars can make you say WOW.
As for driving I perfer mid engine. I also think spyders on the right day on the right road are very close to heaven.

I wish Ferrari would build more Wow cars...
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You like form over function. It is nice to look good but it is performance which counts.

Go my sweet front engine Maranello.

Good Bye.

12 cylinders or walk.