Late 60's Concourse Ferrari seatbelts?

Dan,
You have heard from both Steve and myself that three point Irwin belts were infact installed on GTC's in period. '67 GTC 9303 delivered to Garage Francorchamps has them, as do most other GTC's I've seen.

 

My '66 GTC #8833 only has non retracting lap belts. There doesn't appear to be an upper anchor for 3 point belts. Not even sure if my car shipped new with belts - car was delivered in Italy originally. Belts it had in it when I bought it were 3" loop and latch. I kept them but currently have new vintage style belts from seatbeltsplus.com fitted. I feel marginally safer. I sometimes wish the car had 3 point belts and seat headrests though.

 

My car also came with 3 point Irvins. One of the problems with these original 3 points is the geometry. Compared to a modern system the shoulder point appears too low and too far aft, which causes the lap belt to be pulled up to a weird position when you snug it up. I've seen (not on a Ferrari) a retractor added but it required a new point on or below the B pillar, similar to a modern system.

 

So on the 3 point Irvins, is adjustment taken up both at the buckle and also on the floor mount behind the door?

 

I believe on mine, the only adjustment, is at the buckle. s

 

No argument about GTC's using three point Irvin's. Prior to that, 275's used two point Irvin's.

 

Are all your GTCs American cars? Trying to understand why mine only has a lap belt but all of you seem to have 3 point. I don't know how I could even add a 3rd point and have it handle the stress of a crash unless there is some plate hidden in the pillar.

For your lower anchors, what do they look like? Mine look like steel eye bolts. Changing belts is easy, if you get the snap one ones (kinda like a caribiner attachment to the eyebolt).

 

Out there this AM puttering around and took a couple of shots of the lateral mounting plate on my Italian delivery car, #8995. These were taken of the driver's seat belt and as you can see, the mounting plate on this car is secured to the frame (I assume) by the bolt I marked with a "dotted red" arrow. The "solid red arrow" points to the part of the assembly where the belt (black, my Deist replacement) loops through. The belt is marked with a yellow arrow. Both of the pictures are pretty much the same and also show why i won't be trying for a platinum award. Probably drive it to work tomorrow. steve
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Ditto to Steve, I was also out in the garage this morning and snapped a few shots of how the Irvin 3 point belts are mounted in my car. As Steve's they are bolted on, not the "caribiner" type attachment. Hope this helps.

John
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Wow, thanks for the excellent photos. Mine was an Italian delivery and uses the same anchor points, but has incorrect later aftermarket belts. So I'm installing the Irvins.

The floor anchors are bolted to threaded sleeves that are welded to the frame. I assume there's something similar for the upper anchor point. The photo shows the driver side anchor bolt under the car looking from the rear wheel well forward. I don't know why the photo is upside down in the preview.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

My 330 GT # 8289 - one owner car has the Klippan Belts

here are pics of the buckles, bolts and belt
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Thanks so much for the Picts and details. I'm out of town but will post Picts from mine when I get back. I definitely am set up differently.

 

Here are some pictures of how mine are fitted. Interestingly, I learned today that I have the bolt that apparently could mount a shoulder harness! I don't think one has ever been fitted though, as there is not a mark on any of the metal or leather in the area of either mount point.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Hello,
I just bought a 330 GTC without safety belts and I see this post.
I understand from this post that a 3 points belt is not very convenient due to the very low position of the shoulder point, so I would go to 2 points seat belt, except if some one argues differently.
Could some one tell me exactly where I could drill holes and were (horizontal on the floor or vertical on the tunnel and side?) to get the best result and/or comply with original factory location.
For example giving X centimetres from the rear wall or Y centimetres vis a vis the slide rails of the seats, or any scketch.
thanks a lot,

 

could be possible that your flors already have nuts welded to the floors for the seat belts......take a look underneath

 

Thaks. I will get the car within a few days and check. But in 1966, belts were not compulsory so I imagine there was nothing, exept if a previous owner did provide. i’ll keep u updated. Thanks again Enio

 

i have a euro car here we just restored and there are inside (near the tunnel) bolts welded that i believe are orig to the car......lets see what u have, ill have the car on the lift this week as we are doing a Classique Inspection tues and wed.

 

Back here..
i checked that the cars gets all nuts below the floor. They are on the floor, and not on tunnel. So that I guess I am obliged to choose round hardware (oeillet) with hook seat belts. I would have prefered seat belts with plates but I imagine it is not correct to have the small plates horizontal against the carpet floor.
Another tricky point is the bolt on the center, the driver's side, because the bolt is located nearly under the dash console and difficult to go through the gearbox shaft, (below or above?). I would really appreciate your comments on this point because I suppose some one experienced the same situation.
Otherwise, do you know where I could find static belts 3 point with chrome hooks (or plates if somebody tells me that it could fit), because I see generally hooks or plates (not the buckle of course) which are CAD or bichromated (type for Jaguars E type).
thanks a lot for the above points.

 

So do this!

 

Thanks, but a s far as I can see from their website, the shoulder strap has to be fixed up on the lap belt, which I am not so found since less convenient for an easy use. Moreover I am looking for chromed hardware (plates or hooks).
Must the most important advice is related to the way of fixing the driver's side bolt and plate vis a vis the rear transaxle since there not so much room to pass the belt.
Does anybody got experience with this specific point? Thanks in advance for your advises.

 

When I bought my GTC, the eye bolts were already in place and the car had 3" racing lap belts. I didn't really like those, so I replaced them with belts made by Seatbelt Solutions and purchased from seatbeltsplus.com in 2016. I don't see what I purchased on their website anymore, so may need to call and ask. They were ~2" with a chrome lift-latch and chrome clips on the ends, that connected to the eye bolts. They were still only 2-point though. For the driver side, I ran the belt under the gearbox shaft, as the 3" belts ran under it before I swapped them.

I then went on a search for more period-correct Irvin parts, but I also wanted to switch to 3-point for safety reasons. I ended up finding the hardware and NOS webbing in the UK. I bought the hardware and webbing and then reviewed the pictures in this thread and had the opportunity to view a couple 330 GTCs and a couple 275 GTBs and look at how they were stitched and take some measurements (adjusting a bit to make mine 3 point with side adjusters to accommodate adjusting the belts) and pictures. I laid everything out, folded all the ends the way I wanted them, and binder-clipped it all together. With pictures of the stitching, I shipped it all to a parachute harness company and they sewed them together for me. They are now installed in my car and work and look like I had hoped. Took me about 11 months to get this all solved.

Here are a few images (note images above of my car and belts are the 2" ones I used temporarily).

Irvin latches and britax webbing
Image Unavailable, Please Login

Adjuster to adjust length of the belt that runs from the shoulder mount, through 1/2 the latch, and to the driver's outside floor, forming the triangle that goes over driver's left shoulder to right hip to left hip. The belt that runs from the inside to the other 1/2 of the latch adjusts at the latch. Having adjustments on both sides makes the belts pretty configurable for me. Passenger side is set up similarly, but obviously mirror to the driver side.
Image Unavailable, Please Login


Driver inside, looking down side of center console
Image Unavailable, Please Login


Driver inside, looking under gear shaft
Image Unavailable, Please Login

Driver inside, looking under gear shaft
Image Unavailable, Please Login

Driver shoulder mount.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

Seatbelt Solutions latch from 2 point belts I had installed temporarily.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

Seatbelt Solutions 2 point lap belt I had installed temporarily.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Thanks Jcavalie for your comprehensive "report", it is exactly what I expected.
Couple of thoughts:
- from a personal taste I prefer plates rather than hooks and chromed (or "silver" as Britax are) rather than CAD, which to me correspond better to the Italian design (even if I know that Britax/Irvin correspond better to the ex-factory of that period)
- so, the belt passes below the gearshift, so that it will be easier to use and horizontal chromed plate on a bolt
- for the other anchorages with plates, I will try to screw them direct horizontal; if no t enough room I can use L brackets to buy additionally
- as far as I measured, and you confirm thru adjustable, the belt length from bolt to latch, center side should be around 30cm (12'') to get an efficient shoulder 3 points triangle, while a lot of suppliers in Europe propose fixed 50 or 70cm which doesn't match for this car
- indeed I identified seatbelt plus as a supplier for my requirements (chromed, plates, short adjustable center) but they report to deliver only in North America. I will contact them to see if they can ship to France
- in UK there is QUICKFIT: may be it is there where you bought your hardware/buckles to manufacture your bespoke belts. I will contact them as well.
Again, thanks for your answer, very useful and hello to the SF Bay, nice place to live in

 

Paul - I’m away from a computer until tomorrow, but will respond to your bullets more thoroughly when I get near one.

In the meantime, my belts ended up being much longer than 30cm. I have the lengths I used at home. I did use the pre-existing bolt hole over the shoulder and that’s a pretty long run from there, over seat and shoulder to hip, through latch at inside hip, to outside hip and down to the floor. It was all one run of webbing for the Irvins, and with the need to have seen ends, a foldback to go through the outside adjuster, etc, that one belt was pretty long. The inside was considerably shorter.

I also have the contact info for the person from whom I bought my parts. It wasn’t a company. I got them from someone who had NOS from his dad who was a Britax webbing salesperson and sold to Irvin. He may have more.

As for using plates - I’ll look around my pictures. I’m sure one of the cars I saw (maybe a 275gtb though) had Irvins on plates instead of eye hooks.

stay tuned. Jim

 

Thanks Jim.
More or less my sketch is OK.
But it is difficult to find classic, static 3 points with chromed latch and chromes plates (no hook) in Europe. The good ones are located in USA , as seat belt plus, but they do not want to ship to Europe...for customs reasons. Not fair, because XKE for my another E-type ships to France quick and easy.
thanks