Law school folks help (or others)

Redo the English if you can during the spring or summer.

I would also suggest *not* being a criminal justice major if you want to go to law school. Another social science like History, Econ or even sociology would be better than CJ. The biggest thing about law school is reading and writing, so English is essential.

Here's a thread on law school I started: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30379

I used to work in LSAT instruction -admissions counselling was part of the job.

 

it's in a silver subscribed section.

 

Here's advice I can give...take it for what it is worth.

1. Don't go
2. Don't go unless you score very well on the LSAT
3. If your LSAT is below the 90th percentile, don't go unless you relish the thought of DA/PD work
4. Don't go thinking that "big law will be sooo sweet omg lol!!!111one", because after your first LRW class, you'll get a taste for junior associate work at big law firms.
5. Don't go if you want to be able to wipe your butt with $100 bills some day. Being an attorney can definately net a comfortable lifestyle, but it won't make the big bucks.

Just so you know, I'm closing in on the end of 1L. I decided day one that firm life would never be for me, and I figure I will go the DA route when I'm done.

DAs in SoCal make about $74k starting (some counties are more, some are less). I'll leave LS with about $120k in debt. That equates roughly to $1000/month in student loans bills each month.

RyAlex is an inspiration. He's very modest, and very smart, and he'll never shove the H-bomb in your face. However, he knows the goldmine that materialzed in his mailbox when he was accepted, and he also knows that a vast, vast, vast majority of practicing attorneys will never have doors opened the way HYSCCN opens 'em. If you can go the RyAlex route, do it. But, if you're an average Joe like me, seriously seriously consider another line of work, unless you really want DA work.

Just my .02. Not trying to rain on your parade, but LS is much different that you're expecting it to be, and once you get there and start getting grades based on a VERY strict curve, you'll start to second guess yourself. Just know before hand that it's what you want, not a gap filler or money maker, because the commitment required to eek out an average grade in LS is probably greater than anything you've done before.

 

TopCloser is dead-on right. My advice is to know EXACTLY what you want to do and be realistic about your options and possibilities. If law school is the only way you can accomplish your goals, then go. If not, then run in the other direction!

 

Yes, first year law school marks were a bit of a culture shock for me! They mark you HARD at the law school I attended (University of Melbourne, Australia).

 

I'm guessing those letters represent the names of the Ivy League schools.

 

I feel like I should be aiming for Law school and not Medicine, considering I have very good English skills in reading, writing and comprehension. Come to think of it, I hate this whole ordeal of trying to get into Med School, as I hate 95% of the course I have taken (and yet to take) in my undergrad.. Too late now to switch paths I guess.

BAH, that's how life goes!

 

HSYCCN = Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Columbia, Chicago, Northwestern. Big dogs of the law. Grads from these schools, or any school ranked in the top 25 for that matter, have very strong offers upon graduation. Great schools...study like hell for the LSAT and shoot for 'em.

 

As tough as 1L has been, it has not prompted me to quit, and I find value in it (otherwise I'd drop out). I know for certain that I want to be an attorney, but everyone in my class went through a phase in the first semester where they questioned whether they wanted to continue on in LS.

Most definately try! I guess I was just offering the perspective of a 1L deeply entrenched in his first year, which is almost 180 degrees off from where it was last year. I love what I'm doing, it's just tough.

 

I don't know how universally true this is, but here's what I've heard:
1st year - scare you to death
2nd year - work you to death
3rd year - much better than previous two

 

In my experience (which may to be different to those who've studied law in the US) the reason why my final year was, relatively speaking, the easiest, related to the fact that I had finally got my head around completing law exams to a standard which ensured that I received good marks. Law exams are very tricky (or they have been in my experience). There is an art to answering (comprehensively!) a sometimes ludicrous and complicated hypothetical law exam question!

Also, in the later stages of my studies, I could choose electives, therefore I was able to pursue subjects that had more appeal to me. My family law lecturer once commented in class that most peoples law grades are less impressive during the first two years because everyone does the same compulsory subjects (that one needs to successfully complete in order to be admitted to practice law). Also, with the compulsory law subjects, you are, in effect, competing for good marks against the whole year level of potentially 300+ students (c.f. electives where individual subjects may only have an enrolment of, say, 25 students); it is significantly harder to get marks above 70% for assessment (essays and exams). I also recall my criminal law lecturer telling my class that as a matter of policy, they are extremely reluctant to give ANY students marks much above 80% for assessment. Of course, I can only speak for my university.

 

More like: 3rd year - They bore you to death!

I went to a very good (top tier), regional school. My class had less than 180 graduate. We lost several after the first semester, but the rate went down after the first year was complete. It really is a very difficult experience, but I do not regret going. Others that I graduated with won't say that.

One thing I do regret is not applying for a joint degree (JD/MBA) program. I could have waived several classes and it would only have added one year to my studies.

 

That's it! I forgot what the 3rd year was, but you nailed it.

 

Nate,

I'm particularly curious why you would say you should have gotten an MBA along with your JD.

FYI, I have a JD/MBA, but it is my opinion that the education is overkill. In other words, show me a job description that requires a JD/MBA. There's no doubt that earning these degrees proves some level of intelligence and work ethic, but I've had a very trying time finding career opportunities. More often than not I get the, "didn't-you-know-what-you-wanted-to-do-with-your-life" question.

Generally, of course, I would argue that education is a good thing, but, and I say this in total honesty, the people that I have seen do the best in terms of building wealth, are those that decided to start and build a business as opposed to going and getting numerous degrees.

Now, maybe pulling down a few hundred K a year isn't "bad", but if you're talking JD/MBA from top 10 schools, I would think that that kind of compensation is low.

Moreover, there are indeed other reasons than compensation for earning advanced degrees. Some degrees are gatekeepers for careers (law, medicine, architecture, engineering, etc.), so if that's what you want to do, then you have to jump through the hoops. However, unlike the JD, which puts your hat in the ring in a profession, the MBA is more nebulous as a degree. There is no requirement of an MBA to practice "business". I'd be interested to know if there's a real difference in career earnings between those who have an MBA and those without. Obviously, it's a good program (I did it, so I should say that), but the real value of an MBA seems to me to be somewhat specious.

Thoughts?

CW

 

As a CPA, I can tell you that most lawyers are clueless when it comes to understanding how businesses really work. Serioursly, ask a lawyer to figure a 25% markup. The results can be hilarious. Then, once you stop laughing, ask him or her how to put together a marketing campaign for a new product. Once they realize that you're not talking about the legal aspects of advertising, they will not have a clue.

Sadly, judges are even worst.

So having the joint degree should make you a better lawyer.

Dale

 

There is definitely a difference in career earnings between people with MBA's and those with undergrad degrees alone. Here are some bits from a Wall Street Journal article. The article focuses on starting pay, but I believe that the gap will only widen as people advance further in their careers.

"M.B.A.s in 2006 who accepted job offers and have less than three years of work experience expected to earn an average annual base salary of $68,399 and a signing bonus of $10,736, GMAC reports. Graduates with at least three years of experience but less than six expected to earn $81,710 in average annual base salary and a signing bonus of $16,256. M.B.A.s in 2006 with six or more years' experience expected an annual base salary of $100,887 and a signing bonus of $17,521."

"Graduates who completed a bachelor's degree in business administration/management earn an average annual starting salary of $40,976, according to a spring 2006 survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers in Bethlehem, Pa."

 

True that my be, as an accountant to explain the Erie Doctrine. Or, better yet, easements in gross vs. easement appurtenant.

I considered the JD/MBA route (my school, NOT a tier 1, offers one), but I've already got about 8 years of solid business experience, and I do not want the extra year tacked onto my studies.

 

Sorry about that, you have to be subscribed to see the "business" forum here. The post is repeated here on my old blog: http://ryalex.blogspot.com/2004_09_01_ryalex_archive.html

I haven't updated it in a year since I forgot the password when I changed laptops LOL

 

Well, if you read the law school admissions books you'll see that CJ is just not considered to be an established and rigorous major. It's a fairly recent degree and it's not like English study which has probably been refined at the university level for about 800 years now. If you wanted to be a cop, CJ makes sense, since that is a typical "feeder" degree.

Second, many people say to be the best lawyer you need a well-rounded [liberal arts] education, so that you have a wide pool of culture, history and experience to draw from in your analysis and argument. Studying criminal justice then going to law school is like studying business and then going to business school - B schools just don't prefer it because they like diverse educational backgrounds. They will teach you business. In the same way, law school will teach you the law. Don't worry about it now. I'm serious. Read the "Classics," study history, economics, geography/poli sci, English and art. That's my suggestion, and if you read around, you'll see other prominent people have said this before me.

Lastly, and I don't mean this to come out wrong, but law schools just do not like majors you see Sally Struthers advertise that you can learn at home on video tapes and get a correspondence degree. I'm just being honest, but that is part of the taint of "criminal justice" as a degree, even from a regular university.