Lead or two stroke oil in the fuel? | FerrariChat

Lead or two stroke oil in the fuel?

Discussion in '308/328' started by dino_bob, Oct 4, 2012.

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  1. dino_bob

    dino_bob Karting

    Sep 27, 2012
    133
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Robert
    When I recently bought my 308 Gt4 the seller recommended that I should use two stroke oil in the fuel, instead of lead additives. He had got the tip from a mechanic who was familiar with the car, but as the last owner is deceased I have no idea what has been used in the fuel.

    What are your thoughts about that using two-stroke oil, lead additives or nothing in the fuel? What do you put in your fuel?
     
  2. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    12,665
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    No additive is required - loads of threads here over the years explaining why

    You have not said where you are located so specific fuel recommendations cannot be given but in general just use the best you can find
     
  3. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    12,083
    FRANCE
    It's a topic about as much discussed as timing belts...In the following article, you will find reference to an "official advise" (?) from the Factory: scroll down to "Ferrari".
    And if you car got cats, you can use unleade fuel.

    http://vea.qc.ca/vea/articles/unleaded.htm
     
  4. dino_bob

    dino_bob Karting

    Sep 27, 2012
    133
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Robert
    I live in Norway, so I will use 98 Octane which is the standard high octane fuel. Normal is 95. The car does not have a catalyzer.

    Thanks for the link Nerofer. It says:
    308, 2-valve Mondial, 288GT0, 365GT4BB, 512BB: Conditionally OK on unleaded but NOT for high-speed/track use.

    I have seen that the valves sold at superformance.co.uk is noted with: Lead-free engine builds. Does this mean that the original valves would prefer lead additive?

    Can i do any harm using a lead additive?
     
  5. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,629
    Full Name:
    Dave Helms
    yes
     
  6. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    12,665
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    The info in the link is from 1998 and was updated by the factory - just use SHell Vpower (or similar) and stop worrying unnecessarily
     
  7. dino_bob

    dino_bob Karting

    Sep 27, 2012
    133
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Robert
    Thanks. As there might be other new owners reading this post in the future, I will write what I found out. The main reason lead was introduced was to act as an "anti-knocking" additive, as an octane booster, to prevent pre-detonation. Octane is a number for the fuels resistance to self-ignition. An additional benefit was that it lubricated the valve seats, and thus reduced valve seat wear. When unleaded fuel was introduced the engines had to be fitted with harder valve seats. Many engines already had harder valve seats when unleaded fuel was introduced, and thus required no extra lead additive as long as the octane level was high enough.

    Regarding the anti-knocking, lead additive is not necessary, as the octane levels today is high enough. Here in Norway we have 98 octane, so I will use that anyway.

    Then the only two questions that remains is why Ferrari says that unleaded is ok, but not for high speed/track use in the link above. : "308, 2-valve Mondial, 288GT0, 365GT4BB, 512BB: Conditionally OK on unleaded but NOT for high-speed/track use. "

    And if my engine has hardened seats?

    In an older post by ANDY 308GTB I found this link:
    http://www.thebestemployee.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=331980&d=1148300285

    So, I presume that the valve seats in my engine is hardened, and do not need any lead additive to lube them. And the comment regarding high speed/track use seems to be related to the octane rating, and not valve seat lubrication. I would guess that this is because temperature in the combustion chamber increase during track use/ high speed and thus pre-detonation is more likely to happen.

    For more general information regarding octane rating and gasoline:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,796
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    One comment that I'd make here is that 2-stroke oil may have changed over the years or comes in different flavors. The recent 2-stroke oil that I've used in my lawn string trimmer seems to have a lot of black graphite (?) in it that certainly leaves a dark deposit inside the gascan that I store it in (wouldn't want that in my carb fuel bowls). If you want to add an oil product to the fuel, I'd go with something "cleaner" like Marvel Mystery Oil or a 2-stroke oil that looked more like a translucent amber oil and less like black ink -- just an observation...
     
  9. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
    3,320
    UK
    As far as the valves on a GT4 are concerned, I'd be more interested in the sodium valve issue than worrying about the fuel. The thing has hardened valve seats & so is perfectly OK on unleaded.

    It also doesn't have that high a compression ration by modern standards (and probably even lower than book if its never been rebuilt) so its arguable that even a high octane fuel isn't really necessary - but for the difference in cost I'd use one anyway.
     
  10. dino_bob

    dino_bob Karting

    Sep 27, 2012
    133
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Robert
    I agree Iain, but there is not much that I can do regarding the sodium valves, except worrying:) I think that changing them is just to much work at the moment, and I am not sure if it might already been fixed. The engine has been fixed earlier because of a faulty valve, but I do not know if just one or all the valves have been changed.

    I would not continue using oil in the gasoline, and since I do not know how much has been used earlier it would be nice to "clean" the engine. Do any of you use fuel with cleaning additives?
     
  11. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
    5,855
    NoNJ/Jupiter FL
    Full Name:
    Steve W.
    In my youth -- long before most of you were born -- we used to add Marvel Mystery Oil to the gas tank. Supposedly, it helped lubricate the valves, but who really knew? STP Gas Treatment was a big seller also. When unleaded fuel came around, the big "issue" was that it might burn out the valve seats on older cars. I think it was all a bunch of nonsense, just to sell these additives. I used unleaded in all kinds of old cars and never had a problem.

    Today, I try to buy fuel from name brand companies that have additives in the gas, like Shell, Sunoco, BP. I only buy the "no-name" brands when that's all I can find. I do, now and then, add a bottle of Techron, the Chevron injector cleaner, to a tank of gas in all of my injected cars. It does seem to keep the engines running nicely, and it's a lot cheaper than having the injectors removed by a shop and cleaned.
     
  12. lostbowl

    lostbowl Formula 3

    Apr 30, 2009
    1,246
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Bad , bad logic! Look up the cost of a head and very often a piston. Put the additive issue on the bottom of the list and change the valves out and sleep at night. Try and contact the PO and/or relatives and find out if they have been changed to SS and you may be good to go! Lost

    PS not a bad job, the worst part is getting the front header loose and pulling the engine
     
  13. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    6,871
    Full Name:
    Mike 996
    Re Marvel Mystery Oil...unlike 99% of all the liquid junk that is marketed to somehow fix problems without actually doing the work involved to REALLY fix them, MMO is actually the real deal.

    It used to have a mil spec number and was used in the military for several different things, including lubricating valves as well as cleaning and as a penetrant. I don't think it's still used in the military but it is still widely used in aviation piston engine work/maintenance.

    One thing to be aware of - MMO is an excellent cleaner and can be too good! If you have a lot of deposits in the fuel tank/system, MMO will clean them all. But there is no magic, when they are cleaned these deposits don't change into fuel...they get collected by the fuel filter.

    I personally was involved in example of putting some MMO in a fuel tank. Two days later the fuel filter clogged so that the engine would only idle. FOUR new filters, in turn, lasted less than 20 minutes each at normal operating conditions before clogging completely. We ended up having to vacuum the fuel tank in order to clean out all the gunk that MMO had released. So...if you use it in your tank, depending on the condition of the system, you may get a lot more cleaning than you bargained for! ;)
     
  14. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
    3,320
    UK
    No I don't - I have used injector cleaner in the past but don't now. I have renewed my injectors & had my fuel tanks out last year & they were spotless inside. I don't know about the inside of the CIS injection unit but its one of those things I wouldn't mess with & besides, its working just fine as it is :)

    If you think the carbs need cleaning then personally I'd take them off & strip them. Other than that the best thing you can do is get the engine running right & the carbs balanced, stick some new plugs in it & then take it for a good long run down a motorway at highspeed/revs. There's nothing quite like an "Italian tune up" to get it cleaned out & running right. It will also burn all the crap out of the exhaust system

    Thereafter just use good quality fuel & drive the thing. About the worst thing you can do is let it sit unused.
     
  15. dino_bob

    dino_bob Karting

    Sep 27, 2012
    133
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Robert
    Thanks for all the advices. At the moment it looks like only two valves have been changed (because of damage from foreign object from the air filter housing or something like that). And in addition bearings and oil seals where changed, and the valves adjustet. Timing belt and pulleys too was replaced. I do not want to change all the valves at this point, although it might be gambling. But I will start to prepare mentally to do the job (reading, make a plan, calculate total cost and time and so on).
     
  16. Elentinos

    Elentinos Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2011
    296
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Erwin
    Following the advice of a K-jet expert, I occasionally put a little two-stroke oil in the fuel to keep the K-jet injectors in good shape, especially just before the car is stored for a longer period. I don't see that it could be any good for the valves and seats. It just burns...
     
  17. Patrick Dixon

    Patrick Dixon Formula 3

    Mar 27, 2012
    1,130
    UK
    Just be careful. Some years ago before the UK had gone completely unleaded, I took my GT4 for a spin down to Italy. Filling up on the autobahns in Germany there was no leaded fuel and on arrival back in the UK the engine was smoking heavily. I'd been running at 100-120mph for a lot of the way.

    It required a complete rebuild - heads, pistons, liners etc. I now run it with Tetraboost.
     
  18. Ferrarimicke

    Ferrarimicke Rookie

    Jun 16, 2011
    48
    Häljarp Sweden
    Full Name:
    Micke Ferrarix
    Hello!
    I have a 328 -86, I have a little two stroke oil in the fuel (V-Power) to lubricate injection and injectors. I hope that the oil lubricates the other parts on the way to the cylinders and prevents gaskets to dry. My Ferrari has not felt bad about it the 3 years I've owned it
     

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