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Leak from below water pump on 330GT

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by kiwi330, Jan 15, 2006.

  1. kiwi330

    kiwi330 Rookie

    Jan 10, 2006
    19
    New Zealand
    Well after a great drive of my new 330 home the car was good for a day...

    There is a leak of radiator fluid coming out from below the water pump. It looks very much like it coming out from the drain hole which is open.

    I have gone over service manuals and can't see if there is supposed to be a screw or something blocking the drain hole.

    Does anybody know if on a 209 Tipo the drain hole is supposed to be closed with something during normal operating? If so, what?

    Unfortunately the guys who where going to be servicing the 330 are in Christchurch 3 1/2 hours drive away so it's not all that easy for them to take a quick look at it!

    Thanks

    Rob
     
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  3. michael bayer

    michael bayer Formula 3

    Aug 4, 2004
    1,292
  4. kiwi330

    kiwi330 Rookie

    Jan 10, 2006
    19
    New Zealand
    Thanks Michael, cross posted over on Tom's forum.
     
  5. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,182
    Berkeley, CA
    Full Name:
    Brian Brown
    The drain hole on the waterpump casting is not supposed to be blocked. If the waterpump seal starts to leak, then coolant will come out of this hole.

    If you block this hole, then the coolant will be forced through the oil seal and waterpump bearing and into the crankcase, not good. Slight weepage and coolant residue at the drain hole is normal, a constant leak is not.

    Most likely, you will need a new seal and either resurface of the seal ride, or a new seal ride. Be aware that most new seals have the incorrect size spring (too light) and you will either have to switch the spring from your old seal to the new seal, or preload the new seal with a spacer shim.

    Brian Brown
    Patrick Ottis Co.
     
  6. kiwi330

    kiwi330 Rookie

    Jan 10, 2006
    19
    New Zealand
    Thanks for the info Brian.

    Unfortunately there is a bit too much water leaking through to just leave it and do water top up's as needed.
     
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  8. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Scott




    Oooooooo! I hear the beginnings of a full blown restoration ...




    ;P
     
  9. kiwi330

    kiwi330 Rookie

    Jan 10, 2006
    19
    New Zealand
    According to the service history the last time the water pump seals where replaced was 1996.

    Anybody know how often you need to replace these? 10 years doesn't sound too bad to me.

    I'll pass on the "full blown restoration" if I can :)
     
  10. Erich

    Erich Formula 3

    Sep 9, 2003
    1,138
    Poway CA
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    Erich Coiner
    To avoid a full restoration, remove the following words from your vocabulary:
    While we are in there...............

    I might as well............
     
  11. whturner

    whturner Formula Junior

    Nov 25, 2003
    315
    Western Pennsylvania
    Full Name:
    Warren Turner
    Brian has it nailed, I think. The same leak happened to mine when it was rebuilt with a Ferrari supplied kit. It needed the same fix he recommended. Charlie told me he spoke with the Ferrari people, who told him the parts were "aftermarket" whatever that means. I drove it home (350 miles) and since another hundred or so miles - no trace of a leak.

    Cheers
    Warren
     
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  13. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
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    Brian Brown
    #10 Motob, Jan 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The weep often gets plugged with corrosion/crytalized residue from a seal that has been leaking for a long time, or by the use of too much silicone sealer that has been used to install a seal. This will cause any coolant leakage to go into the sump and mix with the engine oil, making a nice chocolate milkshake.
    This is often misdiagnosed as a leaking head gasket. Here are some images of a sump plate and inside of the sump on a car that has had this problem. Note that the coolant has been leaking for so long that it has crytalized even while under the oil.

    Brian
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  14. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,182
    Berkeley, CA
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    Brian Brown
    #11 Motob, Jan 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The typical seal failures are the carbon face cracking or delaminating from the rubber, or the rubber tearing.
    Below are images of a new seal that leaked because the spring was too light, note the wire diameter of the spring.
    The other seals have the good spring with the large diameter wire, but the seal on the right has failed due to the carbon seal face delaminating from the rubber.

    Brian
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  15. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
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    #12 Motob, Jan 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here are a couple of photos of the waterpump plate. You can see that the weep hole goes through the casting to the back side of the waterpump seal land surface. This allows any leakage past the seal to vent outside the engine. It also allows any oil leakage past the waterpump oil seal to vent as well.

    Brian
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  16. JonBrent

    JonBrent Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
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    JB
    Thanks for posting those pictures Brian.
     
  17. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Scott


    The first strage is always "denial"



    I'll wait and see ...
     
  18. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    6,073
    Central NJ
    Guys,

    You're scaring Rob. Lets make sure we get him really hooked first, otherwise he might panic and sell. Drink the Coolaid Rob ;).

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  19. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    How much was the car used before you got it?. I wonder if maybe it will settle down with proper use?

    I'd top up (and ensure drain hole is 100% clear) and drive her for a few weekends ... if it doesn't settle down then I'd rip the water pump off.

    Luckily you live in New Zealand ... there are hundreds of laterial thinkers and great engineers over there, infact arguably the best restoration firm in the world in Christchurch (many Pebble beach winners ... I believe, in Auto Restorations).

    This is not a major issue ... nothing that kiwi spirit can't fix.
    Pete
     
  20. kiwi330

    kiwi330 Rookie

    Jan 10, 2006
    19
    New Zealand
    Sell? Don't think so. If business went really bad I'd probably sell the house or some other properties before the 330 :)

    The good thing about the car is it isn't my daily driver (got an audi a4 for that) so if things break down the car can just sit until it gets fixed. There is no need to rush things and you gotta expect some teething problems on a car 40 years old.
     
  21. kiwi330

    kiwi330 Rookie

    Jan 10, 2006
    19
    New Zealand
    Auto Restorations in Christchurch did the pre-sales for me, they didn't pick up the water pump was about to crap itself but hey.

    I will probably be using them for most of the work on the engine etc. I think there are about 4 of the 60's V12's in Christchurch and 3 or them get serviced at Auto Restorations I'm told, so they know the engines pretty well and how to keep them running well. The only problem is they are pretty busy and I can't get the car into them till probably beginning of Feb to get some other minor work done.

    Here is a 166 they worked on if anyone is interested ...
    http://autorestorations.co.nz/ferrari_166.html
     
  22. stavri

    stavri Karting

    Jul 20, 2006
    93
    Bucks County, PA
    Brain,
    What causes the carbon to split. I just installed a new seal on my 250 engine and it leaked shortly after I ran it. I removed the seal and it had a split on each opposing side of the carbon. I am using the heavy spring version.This is very frustrating . Are the parts poor quality? I called the vendor who sold me the seal and he said I must have cracked it when installing it. Not bloodly likely in my opinion.
    Any help would be appreciated. I am not sure where to go from here.
    STeve
     
  23. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,182
    Berkeley, CA
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    Brian Brown
    The carbon doesn't usually split. It just separates from where it is bonded to the rubber. Unfortunately the quality of the seals is not that great. I would just get another one and be very careful when installing it. There is not much else you can do.

    Brian
     
  24. whturner

    whturner Formula Junior

    Nov 25, 2003
    315
    Western Pennsylvania
    Full Name:
    Warren Turner
    330 GT water pump problems appear to be endemic. My rebuilt engine with a new Ferrari supplied kit leaked during initial test drives. It was modified with the heavier spring which lasted about 1200 miles. This time it turned out that the rubber boot had split in 2 places.
    Moral of the story: The rebuild kits currently available appear to be unsuitable for use.(except in early VW's)

    Cheers
    Warren
     

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