The 35 did go into the early 1990s. A Citation II iteration would have lower operating costs and there is the engine conversion program available. No where near the hot rod capabilities of a Lear but might be more appropriate especially with shorter flights. Jeff
another thing to factor in ownership vs fractional ownership is crew time/expense...it's more than the flight time to the destination and the return trip... there are additional expenses above the trip to and from... if one owns the aircraft what does one do with the flight crew, while one is at their destination ? a. let them fly back home, then come back for the return trip home b. pay them to to stay until ready to return c. put them on commercial plane to go home and return when ready... the flight crew needs to be paid if they are waiting for the return trip d. most likely it will be a combination of all of the above if you are calculating 100 hrs per year, you are estimating personal time in the air...if the plane is sent back during extended stays which could be typical for personal non business trips, the flight time doubles, as do other crew expenses... fractional share ownership starts looking better for low time users
These are all the reasons I'll never own a plane that requires more than just me to fly it. It just gets to be too much work. If I can ever afford a G5 then fine, I'll fly to Paris and put the crew up in a hotel. But to buy a Lear and have all those headaches to go on a 600nm trip? Forget it.
how much headache would a single pilot jet (Citation CJ) take out of that equation? obviously no crew if you could fly it yourself but still a big, expensive, complex machine to look after.
Sorry guys, this thread just reminds me too much of WhitePeopleProblems.com.... Image Unavailable, Please Login
My airplane is single pilot. Money isn't the issue. I love owning airplanes. Flying is the best thing I ever did with myself. It's changed my life. I can't have a 2 pilot airplane because I don't want some guy tagging along on all my trips. it destroys the freedom of what airplane ownership brings to the table. I generally fly places where other people aren't. I don't go to Disney for example. I like deserted islands. I don't want some guy hanging around. I also don't want an old airplane with lots of downtime and hard to find parts. Understanding the airplane market is right up there with learning a new language. You don't just say "I want to buy a Lear" there are a million details to understand or you will get owned.
Very true. I like the lear because of the intial acquisition cost, the look of the plane (yes I am that vain) , the performance given that cost, etc. What did it for me was the 35 hanging from the ceiling in DEN. Small, beautiful, sexy. Citation is also very nice but doesn't quite push the buttons the way the lear does. I know, practical considerations vs. emotional... Netjets and a turbine twin are also thoughts... but the speed and other possibilities (offest costs with medical charter etc.) are what brings me back to ownership. I think I like the buy it cheap with a few hundred hours TBO and then well.. scrap it or part out. The dual pilot I have friends that I've already spoken with and whom will have their names stenciled on the cockpit. Singel pilot cert would be really nice. I think there is a subset of 35 that is cert for Singel Pilot. I really appreciate the feedback guys. I'm not ready yet... I wish I was now.. but will be in a few. I think you guys are right, it's time to sit down with excel and delve into the details. Many thanks!
Make sure that you aren't just using your money to fulfill your friend's dreams. You can defray a significant portion of the cost by doing charter, but only if the guys who are chartering the airplane know what they are doing, have a decent customer base, and other aircraft of the same type. Of course, the catch 22 is that if they have other Learjets, for example, yours may not be the one that goes out first. If you are thinking of doing air ambulance with the airplane, make sure they have experience doing air ambulance. You need a bed (not cheap), and your interior WILL get trashed. Well, unless you permanently configure it for air ambulance, in which case you won't want to ride in it. Also, keep in mind that most fixed wing air ambulance is either done on a fixed contract, or goes to the lowest bidder-- and if your guys aren't quoting a lot of that stuff already, they may not even get the calls. All of that said, I think the 35 is a great airplane, and if it fits your mission and your realistic budget, then it's a good choice.
Also keep in mind that if you are planning to do passenger charter, there are a fair number of charter customers (and brokers) who won't use an airplane as old as the 35, or even the 31.
the mention of medical charter means that the interior needs to be reconfigurable to accomodate a gurney and other necessary equipment... another area is the entry door and area of ingress to the cabin needs to be sized correctly / clear for gurney / stretcher... not all configurations will work... also in general charter there are times when an obese individual cannot get through the door or to a seat... it happens, though not very often there are critical dimensions that need to be checked before committing to a particular aircraft to use in charter operations
also one should be aware that there are owners / operators that will sibsidize the true cost of charter just to gain revenue / cash flow... that will undercut your rates when there are those other choices... it can be a very cut throat business and that subsidized portion of revenue will never be recovered also submitting you aircraft for charter the maintainance schedule is covered by some addtional regulations ( extra expense ) you need to be able to cover all costs without a revenue stream,
When I used to do that, we actually got 3 or 4 trips a quarter-- less than 1 a month, and that was when they were busy. And, they were always between 11pm and 3am! Cheesey, you can actually make either door work on a 35 for med, but if you have a narrow door (the "Executive Door") then you have to be careful how large the patient is. A wide door, which is a bit more common, is fantastic for air ambulance. I flew a narrow door Lear on air ambulance quite a bit. Only got one patient stuck in the door!
I understand the larger door on the 35 makes gurneys easier to transport. Ideally the organ transport teams are moved but I was playing with the idea of a configurable interior.. Again.. not sure how the FAA would feel about this. I have to reiterate I do appreciate this feedback. Again, it will be some time before I can jump in. Weighing this with NetJets and modifying the model to include medical transport.. I'm going to have to come back in the future with a cleaner post. I basically just wanted your guys opinion on the Lear... and I think I hear it.
The other defining point to determine is if you want to be Part 135 or 91. In order to charter, you need to be 135, which means considerably more maintenance, greater insurance, greater liability, more expense in clean up and detail after every mission,crew on stand by, etc. I have found that unless you have just the right balance of crew, fixed expenses, etc, having a 135 certificate just isn't worth it in today's highly competitive charter market. Costs vastly exceed projected income. If it's for personal use, part 91 is the way to go. The only exception is that in many states, sales tax on the aircraft is exempt if you charter over 50% of the time for the first year of ownership. year. Over 50% means "IN AIR TIME" , not block time, not dead head back time. State tax audits will be generated regarding this. You can count on it! If you are in a high sales tax state, that might be appealing to do for a year. Tax planning with a good aviation tax attorney before acquisition is a must. Gary Bobileff
If you have any thought whatsoever of doing air ambulance, get a large door airplane. My old narrow door airplane actually had a large door retrofitted (yes, it's possible, but very expensive). I personally prefer the narrow door for passenger operations, but it's not a big deal. You can absolutely reconfigure the airplane from med to passenger. The FAA is fine with it, as long as you do it correctly. The problem, if you didn't read my previous post on this topic, is that it will trash your passenger interior. The first burn victim you carry will also mark your last passenger trip with that interior... as a doc, I would think you would realize this. As for organ transplant teams, I realize that it varies by location, but I don't think those guys fly enough to make a real business out of it-- and you will have to undercut whoever has that business now, in order to get it. Furthermore, those trips are a real pain to crew, as they happen on relatively short notice, and usually in the middle of the night. Quick question: is your buddy who is willing to fly and manage this airplane an airline pilot? Oh, and just to be clear: I think the 35 is a great airplane. I really enjoyed my time flying them, and would happily fly one again.
good point... charter use and personal use are polar opposites... with reference to the wear the interior gets... the personal show quality interior goes away as soon as you let others use your plane, I can guarantee that at the end of a year it will make you cry. If you charter you will need a cleaning service to maintain the interior after each use, even then the plane gets hard use. It depends on expectations. also the rest of the plane gets used up as well, the exterior can get beat up bad... just flying through some crap weather can peel the paint off and make the plane look like sh*t... then it's a trip to the paint shop... if it's a personal trip there is a choice of going through the stuff, going around to save the paint, or delay the departure... cosmetic maintainance costs are an overlooked item, but if you want to look good, it's several thousand for a touch up... it comes with the territory, happens to everyone, it's all in the log books, planes that fly are constantly being painted the cost meter runs very hard... generally if it is a personal plane, it is best not to charter, overall costs will remain manageable and there will always be a nice plane to fly
Another point about chartering out the aircraft is how set is your flight schedule? If you cancel a charter flight because you want to fly then the clients and brokers will stop calling. A friend used commercial instead of cancelling a charter flight for this reason. Jeff
