Learning what it means to 'sort out a Ferrari' - advice to new NEW BUYERS!

Sorry to hear about your poor ppi, but the ppi is only as good as the person doing the inspection.
I had a customer buy a ferrari from Fla and the ppi was done by one of the "best". When it arrived I had too re-inspect the car, it had so many issues that should have been found by a decent ferrai mechanic. When we do a ppi for a potential buyer it takes about 4 hours and results in an eight page detailed report. Better too picky.

 

There is much merit to what you posted regarding sorting Jedi.

PPI's are a very difficult thing as one only has a limited amount of time to look over a car. To really get a feel for a car takes days as there is much that doesnt show itself right away. That said, most the items you list should have been fairly easy to spot. I have had the same experiance as Rock on a number of occations regarding the check overs.

The screen you photoed is the OE material that suspends the cat matrix in the metal can. It is supposed to isolate the delicate ceramic matrix from vibration. Nothing abnormal about the screen being there, just part of the OE Cat.

Dave

 

Oh, you haven't gotten to the 'fun stuff' yet - coolant hoses, water pump, radiator/fans/electricals/relays/thermostats/thermistors, SUSPENSION, Sump/Silentbloc/shift-shaft, injection/ignition, old-grease door/window stuff.....

My PPI was done by Norwoods in Texas - I was told I had a 'solid driver' after they took my $400 and spent two days with the car. When I rolled the car into my garage, I was hemorraging every fluid imaginable - after four years and 2/3rds the original purchase price of the car later, I'm still repairing/replacing stuff. Has anyone not surmised that Ferrari Sellers are the world's most prolific LIARS???

 

I disagree with the slam on Norwoods. James Patterson and I went through my car during a PPI for 5 solid hours. We looked at everything imagineable. I don't think anyone could have done a better job. And, so far, the car has not had any issues. Sorry that you had a bad experience.

I agree with you that many sellers are liars. Sometime you get lucky and find an honest one. Like the original owner who just sold me my 1997 Ruf Turbo R.

 

Here's the deal...they all need to be sorted out. If they were barely driven even more so. When hoses start spewing it's a sign of non-use to me. That's why I did what I did. I bought the car by looking, driving, good reputable seller [T Rutlands] and still had to sort the car out. Good thing is you get real intimate with the car and you know what has been fixed and if it was done right. Most of this stuff is pretty simple but won't show up until you start really driving the car. It's all about the process IMHO. A PPI will get you past the first stage [compression, clutch, leaks,rust,frame damage, etc.] but the car needs to be driven over a period of time to truly sort it out. I am on month 5

 

Good thread. I was very lucky with my 328, but truth is they're all old used cars, whether they're queens with 1200 miles or drivers with 50,000 miles.

A PPI should catch the impending-catastrophe types of problems, however. I had a minor power window issue a few days after I go my car, but the big stuff was (and has been) fine.

 

your right, not in it's original placement, the cell matrix had been melted out and as a result the gas flow and pulses took the isolation material for a ride. nothing unusual for a melted out cat.

Dave's been wrenching on these cars a loong time to know what's going on.

and as the others have said it does take a few miles to get a good picture of what shape the car is in. garage queens are the most $$$$ to drive regularly. if you really want a complete comprehensive inspection, expect it to take a week and cost alot more than $400. esp at the average shop rate of $100hr.

 

As someone who has owned around 35 classic cars, has been working on 1960s-1980s cars for around 17-18 years, and who recently turned down half a dozen 308s to finally buy one that needs very little (they all need something), here is my advice to NEW BUYERS:

I can't believe how many people rely so heavily on a "PPI", and treat it as gold. Every time someone comes on here saying "I'm looking to buy a Ferrari," the first thing someone on FerrariChat says is "Get a PPI," or "I wouldn't buy any used Ferrari without a PPI," or "A PPI is the only way you can be sure you are getting a good car," or other such nonsense. It is all nonsense, because you don't know the mechanic inspecting the car, you don't know his level of thoroughness, his level of honesty, his level of general knowledge such as spotting accident and rust repair, and his level of knowledge of the particular model you are buying. I would trust a PPI from a well-reputed 308 expert, but that's about it. You also need to have your own level of knowledge and understanding in order to ask intelligent questions of the person inspecting the car.

The truth is, there is no substitute for:

1) being knowledgeable about cars yourself (and that means having experience wrenching on them), and

2) actually going to see, inspect, and test drive a car in person, yourself.

Yep, that means you have to spend money and time on gas or a plane ticket. But that money is far better spent than buying a car sight-unseen, and trusting (and paying for!) the word of someone you don't know. This applies more to the experienced classic car owner. For the armchair and checkbook enthusiasts who have never worked on cars before, can't spot sand marks under paint, and have never put their head to the ground to inspect the underside of a car, I suggest either taking someone knowledgeable with you (and making it worth their while), or researching the person doing your PPI as thoroughly as you research the car itself.

It amazes me how many people are willing to dump several hundred dollars to pay a shop they don't know to tell them their car is nice, but they won't spend slightly more to go and see for themselves. Less than ten years ago, conventional wisdom was that "You never buy a car like that sight unseen"; eBay, with their seven-day auctions, pretty much threw that out the window.

If you have worked on Italian or European cars and have done valve jobs, changed cylinder heads, done compression tests, fixed other people's wiring screwups, can spot body work, etc., then you don't need a PPI; familiarize yourself with 308s through a local club or other owner, and go look at the car yourself. Most of the "Get a PPI" advice given on this forum is from people who haven't worked on cars, and/or people who are too cheap, lazy, stupid, or busy to go and look at the car in person.

If your car ownership history goes something like this: Japanese Compact ---> Sporty Nissan ---> 10-year-old BMW ---> 25-year-old Ferrari, then you should really become more knowledgeable and experienced in classic cars before taking the plunge with a potentially expensive Ferrari. Get to know some local owners, especially one who does his own work, and spend a year or two living vicariously through them and getting to know the model of car before you buy your own. Or buy a FIAT or Porsche and drive it around for a year or two before buying a Ferrari, and gain experience in classic car ownership while you also learn about the Ferrari you want as described above. You will make a much better decision. A Ferrari shouldn't really be a first classic car for someone, unless that someone is perfectly comfortable spending as much as he paid for the car again in the first year or two of ownership just to fix things.

 

Unfortunately there are no single recipes for buying an old car except making a lowball offer with cash and expecting to pay a lot more afterwards. You’ll get some balking from the owner (and they might tell you where to go) but let’s be honest, buyers and sellers, carefree cars are exceedingly rare and should be priced accordingly. All others are just nice old cars.

My chief concerns are a rustfree body/structure and a sound drive train so the PPI would focus primarily on that.

Careful... ask too many questions and you'll be labeled as a tire-kicker

 

This is a very good post. People often think sorted means a recent belt service.

Your showing that it means much more.

 

Tony K hits it smack on the head..

I repeatedly refer folks to the FCA Newsletter, those guys/gals seem to CARE about the car...

And two of my three cars were purchased from LONG TERM mature owners that did the required services with out scrimping.....

The ones that have gone thru five used car dealerships, do yourself a favor, and 'pass'..

 

It's a good post, but the other truth is that there are guys like me, with non-technical backgrounds who can spot abused cars and know that plumes of blue smoke from the tailpipe aren't good, but don't know how to do a compression test and might overlook important expensive stuff about to fail. I rely on my Ferrari tech, yet consider myself an enthusiast.

A PPI probably has low value for FChat'ers like Carreaper, Verell, Steve Magnusson and others, who build engines during halftime. Some of us know the basics about cars, but depend on Ferrari experts as a substitute for having big wrenches.

 

That's true, I was just giving a few indicators to a "good car" without a PPI.

My blue one the second 20 year owner had my money based upon a local chatter's once-over, and Lady Valeria and I were on the plane one way, with no turning back.......

Now that she's gone, I realize that was the best week of my life, and it's all downhill from here.....

 

Tony is so right. There was a thread here awhile back, asking about how many owners had actually gotten a PPI, and if I remember correctly, over 60% had NOT gotten a PPI.

 

Great post. THANK you !
Hunter

 

Tony K does have it right--there is no substitute for being able to analyze a car yourself before purchase. There is no shortage of "experts" out there who will gladly take your money and call it a PPI but may have no more knowledge of Ferrari's than they do of Maytags. It is always buyer beware with used cars, which is what we are dealing with in the final analysis...Unfortunately, you may not acquire all the knowledge needed until you have had your toy for 18 years like me! Patience and cash can fix anything.

 

This is so true and useful. As much as it pains me to admit that my reality of inadequate mechanical/electrical skills but decent budget ...dabbling in used F-cars is a slippery slope. Every time I get near a fifteen to twenty year old Mondial I like I secretly wish it were a Lexus in Ferrari clothing. However, I can't have it both ways.

 

So I really have to count my blessings on my car then, bought the car from Wilhoit Enterprises (sight unseen, big leap of faith ) in May 2004 with 15950 miles and Michael took the car for the PPI. PPI came back clean as a whistle and I have had no issues with car at all! Michael even offered a money back guarantee if I did not like the car he would refund the money and pick the car up from NJ back to MO. I have replaced the oil four times, coolant two times, brake fluid two times, replaced the timing belt and tensioner bearings only because I was paranoid, went through four mufflers until I settled on a STEBRO. Oh I forgot I replaced the AC Compressor last year, 30K major coming up in March 2009. My car is just a dream to drive and faster than other 328's due to a camshaft replacement performed by the original owner. The car now has 25960 miles. Goes out in the rain and gets parked in my daughter's day care because she loves going to "school" in it and Sabrina is three years old and she loves her yellow ferrari.

 

I saw a ppi on an f40. It was barely a page long and very non descript. What a joke.

 

Back when Alfas were my daily driver, my rule of thumb was to plan 25% of the purchase price to sort out a used Italian car. That number was just about right for my "driver" 328, too.

The issue is that there are different levels of maintenance on Italian cars. The "perfect gem" that will handle an aimless sunday drive once a month may not be up to being a daily driver.

There will be things the current owner isn't hiding -- he just got so used to them that he didn't think to mention it. But a new owner will notice.

Etc.

And they're complex cars. When you take a Ferrari to a mechanic for the first time, he has no way of knowing its history. So he'll have to look into everything, so that "familiarization" will inflate the first services. (One advantage to buying a car your mechanic has already been servicing.)

And, in general, when these cars work perfectly, people love them. Even with a need for "quick cash", selling the Ferrari is a notion that doesn't come up when you're still in love with the car. So most used Italian cars for sale have somehow annoyed the current owner -- which usually means that it needs "sorting".

People may say that 25% of the purchase price is a high reserve for the first service. But better to budget for more than you need than to budget too little and have to under-maintain it. If you can't afford to make it right, you have a long string of little issues constantly interfering with the ownership experience, or you might even wind up having to let the car sit.

But the alternative to a big service is often a whole lot of little services.