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Let me be truly honest.....

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by SoCal to az, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula Junior

    Oct 3, 2017
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    T
    Not being sarcastic. I once owned a highly tuned Eagle Talon which had massive lag. It was a thrill every time the boost (eventually) kicked in. It’s probably one of the reasons that makes the F40 exciting to drive.

    One of my race cars is a Praga R1T which uses a turbocharged 2.0 Formula Renault engine making 380hp. The lag is about 1 second which, needless to say, requires an adjusted driving style.

    I’ve never driven a street car that doesn’t have lag - Pista, 720 and GT2 RS included. While they respond immediately to throttle input, there is a delay before peak boost is reached and acceleration is at its full potential for a given throttle position and RPM. Driving an 812 or Speciale after getting out of those cars makes it especially obvious.
     
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  3. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    I'm just saying there's a double standard as to how the arguments are made. If the argument is that sound is the most important thing, and after that, the argument goes that too much performance hinders the sound. Then yes, why isn't the F355 or the 360CS the logical choice? Obviously the simple answer is that there must be more to it than looks and sound. And if that is the case, then it stands to reason that there is also something that warrants choosing the 488 over the 458. My point was simply to try and show that there often is a double standard in this debate when people argue that sound is everything.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  4. scott61

    scott61 F1 Rookie

    Feb 11, 2004
    2,564
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    I get it, I always disliked my cars newer model...well right up till I finally buy it and then love it.
     
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  5. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,346
    I've driven and heard many 458's. One day i was driving fast following a N/A Ferrari California and i swear, that car's tone and pitch sounded closer to and f1 car, sounded better than any 458 i've heard. I don't know if the exhaust was stock or not but, i have'nt heard a 458 produce a tone like that before, which is strange.
     
  6. 3POINT8

    3POINT8 Formula 3

    Jan 23, 2014
    2,262
    False argument. My point was whether the loss in sound was worth the gain in performance (considering you could likely never use it anyway). There is no loss in sound from F355 or 360CS to 458. Thus no double standard.
     
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  8. Ash Patel

    Ash Patel Formula Junior

    Dec 12, 2015
    452
    Stockholm, Sweden
    #156 Ash Patel, Jul 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
    ^ this x 100 is so spot on all day everyday, it's okay to dislike and/or not being able to pay the delta to upgrade. But to convince yourself of any other truth to why not to upgrade is getting a bit old as we all know why the majority of the outgoing model owners do not upgrade, off course there are exceptions to this @dustman is a living example of this and kudos to you for standing your ground and doing what your heart tells you, if that even meant letting go of a Pista and buy a 458 which to me shows real confidence in what you really like and simply don't care what others at cars and coffee think, flexing the latest model ;)

    But a story like @dustman I've not heard of here, at least not going from a Pista, maybe there are other examples of people here trading down from a 488 to a 458, if not the debate should end now as we all know the 458 is a great car, just not as great as the 488 otherwise Ferrari should just close their business, I mean this turbocharged engine have won so many awards :)

    I see the same on every car forum, I remember when the new R8 came and people with the outgoing model clotted R8talk with nonsens about how the old R8 will now appreciate as hell as the design is so much better, Audis first sportscar etc etc.
     
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  9. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

    Dec 9, 2014
    2,160
    Canada
    Impartiality is the rarest of human qualities.
     
  10. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula 3

    Oct 17, 2015
    1,112
    I think I know what you mean. My new 4c does that too. I just need to make sure the boost does not suddenly come on when making a turn.
     
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  11. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ

    Jul 19, 2006
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    This is exactly why these debates often turn vitriolic, and why perhaps some 458 lovers take umbrage with the endless comparisons. Invariably, someone with a 488, or Pista/F8, chimes in and insinuates that it is a financial-jealousy issue for most (excepting Dustman of course) and they are somehow deluding themselves...being the poor little bastards they are. It is so insulting.

    So...Ash....I currently have a 458 Spider, a 458 Speciale, a 16M, an 812SF...and turned down an allocation for a Pista. Do you think I can afford a 488?
    Do you think there might be a bunch of us that actually prefer the experience of the 458?
     
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  13. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
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    #160 Shadowfax, Jul 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
    Sound is everything in a way because without it the rest doesnt feel as good.
    So out of all the ingredients its really the most important one even though the others are also a necessary part of the whole equation. So it is understandable why some prefer to take the better sound and accept less of certain other ingredients.

    I think it boils down to just how much of a compromise one is prepared to accept in taking a car with less sound and will the other elements take up the slack enough - which is a big ask.

    When the sound is so reduced and/or anticlimactic and the other elements improved to where connection is no longer as necessary because the car is doing it all for you then the car becomes quite emotionless. I found that to be the case in F8 to a larger extent. Had the sound not been so muted and anticlimactic and the ride so soft and luxurious it may have been a different story. I guess it comes down to how much sound is knocked out and how muted the other elements have become in the course of achieving superior performance - performance which on todays scale mostly isnt required anyhow as the opportunites are so few to use the additional.

    So let’s BE truly honest - sound is more important than some care to admit.
     
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  14. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 Rookie
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    I agree with Ash also BUT there are examples, Hence Dustman and even you ! that have the means of having multiple cars.
    But there are many that the Delta is why they are still 458. PLEASE understand im not at all demeaning them. Same way as i believe the delta was too big for me for the Pista and or even with the F8. Hard to swallow that big pill when you buy at 600 don't get more than 400 and the new car costs 650
     
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  15. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,304
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    #162 Shadowfax, Jul 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
    Sometimes not having the money is a blessing. Just imagine how much is going to be shredded in these latest offerings. Unthinkable. So on that note only having enough for a 458 could be seen as a boon.....or the dodging of a major bullet. The guy with not quite enough will able to buy these upcoming offerings in a year or two out for a fraction of the original purchase price and its not as if the original owners put any more than a few thousand ks on them over the period of their ownership anyway. And then there is the case where most used buyers will see these battery hybrids as disposable.....not worth the risk. Imagine the cost of maintaining one outside of warranty if batteries go. Oh boy. Even a ropey old 458 high miler never looked so good!
     
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  16. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula 3

    Oct 17, 2015
    1,112
    That's why I talked about Kate Upton. This kind of thread almost always decomposed into what you described. How Pista/488 owners assumed that 458 owners could not pay for the newer cars illustrates that Ferrari ownership does help stroke ego in some indivudals. Quite silly, isn't it? I remember a moderator, maybe Paul, once said if you think you are rich on Fchat, there will definitely be someone richer, and I will add to it - it's usually the quieter one. Like in your case, I never knew you have that stable of Ferrari until now and you have been here a long time.
     
  17. humdizzle

    humdizzle Karting

    Mar 9, 2016
    153
    yeah this happens everywhere, and on every forum:
    "My e92 m3 with a v8 is better than your new turbo M3 with electric steering because X,Y, and Z"
    "My 993 carrera is better than your 997 because i'm air cooled"
    "my 997 is better than your 991 because Mezger"
    "my tesla will smoke your supercar at the stoplight"
     
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  18. Ash Patel

    Ash Patel Formula Junior

    Dec 12, 2015
    452
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Off course you could, all love italiafan :)
     
  19. scott61

    scott61 F1 Rookie

    Feb 11, 2004
    2,564
    North of Boston
    Sound is one of the most important parts of the driving experience to me and why one of the first mods I do on pretty much every car I have owned is to change exhaust. Now I could understand if we were talking about a Tesla but the 488 has sound and I think with doing the valve mod and driving the car correctly it sounds pretty damn good.
     
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  20. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    I agree that it should not automatically be assumed that a 458 owner claims to prefer the 458, just because he/she cannot afford a 488. Of course this is on occassion the case, but it's fairly rare all things considered. Could you afford a new 458, chances are you could afford a new 488. Same goes for used.
    My gripe with this whole debate stems from the situations where 488's has been discussed as a possible purchase or the like. I actually don't really consider Italiafan among the 458 instigators, but there are some who find it nessecary to chime in every time someone asks about a 488 or Pista. Not only does this happen when a purchase is the topic, but also if a 488 or Pista owner has posted pictures or a video from a trip or a trackday. I mean, why is it nessecary to follow up someone's video of enjoying a 488 or Pista with a random video clip perhaps showing a 458 Novitec car or the like, sporting the comment "A shame it does not sound good" or "A shame it's not designed by Pininfarina". Exactly what purpose does that serve? Is it to make one self feel better? If so, I think we can both agree that such behaviour reeks of inferiority complex.

    When someone asks if a Pista is a nice buy as he or she is considering one. Why does people feel that it is nessecary to chime in and say "Don't listen to them. Get a Speciale" or post a rant about how much better the Speciale is and how much less of a VS car the Pista is etc.

    The last thing is when people ask about 458 vs. 488. Yes then of course, by all means tell why one over the other. But don't do it in a way so what is personal opinion becomes objective fact. "I refer the design of the 458" followed up with a rant about how one does not understand how 488 owners can like the design not penned by Pininfarina etc. Again my question is, what purpose does it serve?
    I was told off yesterday because I hinted that there might be a bit of a double standard, and perhaps some might not be entirely truthful about why they prefer one over the other. Yes there are those who will not admit that the car is mostly for show. Yes there are those whom cannot afford to upgrade to a newer model. Yes there are those who got burned getting an allocation. I'm not saying it is the case for all, I know it isn't. This goes on with all brands. There are Porsche guys arguing that a regular GT3 is the same as a GT3RS, and there's still an argument about 997 GT3RS vs. 991 GT3RS. Some of that does stem from situations where people try to make up for what they don't have. It is not the majority, but it is there.

    I get scolded for saying there's a double standard, but I have on several occassions been told that I'm not being truthful when saying that I prefer the sound of the 488 over the 458, like that is some preposterous blasphemy which cannot possibly be true. That is a double standard right there. It is not okay that I air the notion that it might not be 100% of 458 owners who keep their car just because it's the model they prefer or because they genuinely feel it's the better car, but it is perfectly fine insinuating that someone who prefers something as ludicrous as the 488 sound is a liar.

    What I'm saying here is not targeted at every 458 owner here. I have never had issues with Italiafan, iloveGT, and many others. It is targeted at those whom find it appropriate and nessecary to be negative and condescending at every opportunity to rip on the 488, F8 and Pista. It brings nothing of value to the comunity or this forum - it is toxic and pointless.

    The sad thing is that not only on these boards, but also out in the 458, 488, F8 comunity, things have become a caustic melting pot of ripping on each others cars. We should be talking about interesting road trips, fun track days, detailing, hilarious public reactions, part upgrades, tyre pressures, Ferrari life and culture etc. etc. etc. But instead we spend time testing into each others preferences. Yes I've become as guilty as most others. At some point when you have had enough, it is hard not to turn around and fire back. It's sad and it should not be this way.

    I think I will take this as an opportunity to try and be more positive and refrain from engaging in more 458 vs. 488 nonsense. My retorts and negativity brings as little to the table as anyone elses, and to be brutally honest, it is starting to have a profound impact on my level of enjoyment I get from the cars themselves. I used to be incredibly broad minded about the various models, but I find myself focused on the flaws because of the negativity. What a waste.

    Back to enjoying cars - ALL of them.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  21. ntatfas

    ntatfas Rookie
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    I totally agree. I joined this chat site months ago and, having owned 9 F cars, really started to question why I was buying more. I quickly came to realise it is "infected" with the same; negativity, banal arguments, only my option counts, and other behaviours that social media suffers.

    I have learnt some great stuff on here. I have started, VERY modestly, trying to contribute with a careful eye on trying to make sure anything I say is not drowned out by pointless comments – the negativity is counter productive.

    Everybody has preferences, but people want informed balanced views – which there are many of – not blinkered opinions which there are too many of.
     
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  22. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,304
    Australia
    Agree - sound is key. 488 is a great sounding car and with mods is even better again. I really enjoyed mine and have no regrets. It's just a matter of how far one wants to take it but on a 488 and Pista a controller is a minimum imho. I was looking at this beautiful car - here is the linkhttps://www.caradvice.com.au/864139/pininfarina-battista-electric-hypercar-coming-to-australia/ - and wondered that even with all that hp and gorgeous looks how it would be driving it without a decent sound. One thing is for sure though Ferrari needs to get Pininfarina back to get on top of their current designs.
     
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  23. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ

    Jul 19, 2006
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    I think this is beautifully stated. I also agree that our often focusing on the minutia and flaws of each model can cause some of the magic to weaken. These are all Ferrari’s, exotic cars of immense emotional power. Most of the world (of those who love cars) dreams of these machines and I have so much pleasure sharing them with non-Ferrari owners whenever I can.
     
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  24. scott61

    scott61 F1 Rookie

    Feb 11, 2004
    2,564
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    I think it's much easier for different people to decide if a car sounds good or not than if a car looks good or not, way more variables on looks than sound. Like pretty much no one is going to like the sound of an electric car but when it comes to looks people might really like or dislike the same car and neither is right or wrong. I have owned many cars over the years but never a Ferrari, closest I came was in 2004 when I bought a new Maserati GT Spyder. I'm sure I'm in the minority but while I liked the looks of some Ferrari's never found one that looked good enough to push me over the edge into buying. Not till I saw the 488 I bought, maybe it was the color? But I don't know I just loved the sleek sexy lines that neither my huracan or other cars I have owned had. Until I saw your post I didnt even know it wasnt a Pininfarina design? heck only thing I even know about them was it was on the side of my Maserati
     
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  25. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    You've been missing out. :)
     
  26. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

    Dec 9, 2014
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    From the time I joined this forum in 2014 until the present, there has been a seismic shift in the overall attitude of the members towards Ferrari the company generally and the cars specifically. The iconic phrase" A Ferrari is a Ferrari" was used constantly to express the emotional attachment to the brand. Words such as - history, emotion, soul, pride, unique,prestigious constituted a common part of the lexicon voiced by members. Other brands were dismissed. Porsche was compared to appliances- reliable, Germanic, functional but lacking emotion and soul. Lamborghini was ridiculed as being ostentacious and crass. The overwhelming sentiment that prevailed was that Ferrari was a storied brand that was highly revered to an extent that elevated its status to a level unmatched by not only any competing car companies but virtually any marque of any commodity. Reliability and technical flaws, were overlooked and rationalized as " It is a Ferrari".

    A casual persual of the overiding sentiment towards Ferrari in this forum in the last couple of years, paints a starkly different prevailing sentiment. Many complain that the models lack emotion and engaging driving dynamics while conceding that the cars possess greater technical capabilities. The transmogrification from NA power plants to forced induction, while resulting in greater speed has been castigated as resulting in diminished engine sound and subjective involvement. Dissatifaction has increased with the new corporate business model of expanding potential car ownership to anyone with the means to purchase. Overwhelming praise is now expressed over Porsche and their GT series as being not only superior technically but more emotionally satisfying.

    Yet, the new Ferrari models are arguably more aesthetically enticing, faster, more reliable, and technically significantly more capable. There often is a penchant to glorify and remember the past with a rose colored lens and simultaneously be melancholic about its passing. My subjective assesment about the current Ferrari is that the F8, and Pista represent the finest and most exciting evolution of its type. They are at the top echelon of super cars and I eagerly await my F8 with extreme anticipation.
     
  27. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ

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    As always, beautifully written.
     
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  28. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 Veteran
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    Nov 25, 2012
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    Well stated.
     
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