Let's talk about business attire (suits, shirts, etc)

Up until recently, I hadn't put on a shirt and tie for nearly nine years. I took on a new career recently and decided to go shopping.

Shirts:

After figuring out what size I am now (17 collar 34/35 sleeve) I bought a few different brands of dress shirts. I bought a shirt or two at Men's Wearhouse, about five at Jos. A. Bank and probably five more at Brooks Brothers. I have to say I like the BB shirts alot, especially their 346 non-iron jobs. They seem to have pretty good construction, fit very well and they come out of the dryer looking pretty sweet. I usually will run a cool iron over them and they look professionally pressed. At first I was skeptical about the whole "non-iron" thing but it's true. Things sure have changed in a decade!

I really had to get used to wearing an undershirt. After being in T's all that time, it felt weird for the first week or so. I'm used to it now.

Any other dress shirt brand I should check out? I now have around 7 of these BB shirts in about every color I can stand. I have a few RL shirts but to tell you the truth, after experiencing these no-iron things, I don't want anything that needs lots of ironing.

Ties:

Partial to the Jos. A. Bank pattened ties. I have a few BB ties I picked up at their store.

Suits

I've yet to buy a suit. Pretty partial to navy with a thin, muted stripes. I did pick up two sport coats (one solid navy and one solid goldish-brown) from Men's Wearhouse (about $175 each) and think they're okay. I saw a CK suit I liked alot recently (dark charcoal with a fine, thin stripe). How do CK suits hold up? I'm probably looking in the $300-$600 range for a suit here pretty soon. Any suggestions? BTW, I have an excellent tailor who I used back in the day.

Shoes:

Picked up a pair of Cole Haans, and two pair of Johnston and Murphy shoes. On my feet quite a bit, so these are nice and comfy. I'd love a pair of Ferragamos, but it's not in my budget at the monent after all this shopping.

I'm in and out of my car a lot, and in and out of industrial and retail buildings a lot, so I need stuff that wears well. I bought a pair of RL slacks and ruined them the first week because I brushed up against something and now they're stained. Sticking to blacks and no-stain khakis because I just ruin anything else. This is another reason I won't go nuts with expensive suits.

Where do you guys shop? Anywhere good online? Anything I should check out?

RMX

 

Neiman Marcus, the assistants can fix you up real good.

 

I HATE ties. Who came up with the idea of making a noose fashionable.
I have a few of those non-iron shirts. There great.

 

New career? Suit? Tie? You obviously didn't think much about that niche music I told you about!

 

Outlets like Nordstrom's rack, Sak's Off 5th, Marshall's. 70% off is my magic number.

 

If you are slimmer, try a european cut shirt, such as BCBG.

 

Whenever I go to the mall, I shop for sales. I make a quick trip through the men's section of the department stores to see if anything is on sale or catches my eye. I recenty made a trip through Saks and picked up an Armani suit marked down from $1800 to $750. I wasn't looking for new suit, and I'm not sure I needed one, but got it anyway, because I am a sucker for a good deal. I am also rather tough to fit and the suit fit like a glove.

I can't tell you how many sweaters I have bought in June or July. Don't be afraid to pick up something and sit on it for a few months.

My shirt is a 34/16 but I have found most are made for guys with bigger waists and fit me like a baloon. Calvin Klein shirts are trimmer and fit me very nicely. I bought a stash at Foleys for 50% off. I typically buy dress shirts and wear them casually.

Once you are comfortable with your sizing, take a look at www.sierratradingpost.com. They have some nice stuff at pretty big discounts.

I buy shoes like a woman. I get a good deal of my casual stuff from DSW Shoe Warehouse. Shoes for Khakis come from Johnston Murphy. Some of their stuff can go back to the factory for a rebuild. I recently had a pair refurbished and they came back perfect.

 

Remix - I'm fit and quite slim, and shirts fall on me differently than they measure. I measure a 16, but cannot fit in one. I have to buy 16.5 or 17's and the Jos A. Bank shirts are just too large in the gut area. No one seems to sell a sport/slim cut shirt anymore. I've found my luck at Harolds. They even have an outlet here in town, and I can pick up a handful of shirts for cheap dollars. They typically go for 15-35 a piece. The quality and patterns seem to be more timeless than the average trend out there. Pants too, love em there.

I avoid department stores and itching to buy one of the recommended Hong Kong custom tailors for suits - when I need another one.

 

You should talk to the menswear folks to find out when they mark down... or go to Off 5th. One of my roommates in college was from Hong Kong and was a big Versace and Armani buff (he had a full time job as IT admin). They would send him postcards for their sales - I got a $900 Emporio Armani suit for $156!

 

Come to think of it, that was the number that caught my eye on my last suit. Didn't need it at all, but that number was hard to resist.

Up here, we have the Harry Rosen Outlet.

 

I got a tencel shirt from Johnston & Murphy. It isn't iron-free, but I loved the colour and the material.

 

so no more signing boobs then?

 

Something great about Italian suits, they fit so much better. I have an Armani which I got from a movie set sale, never worn, never hemed, fits me like a glove $200. I also have a CK suit which is not bad but not in the Armani league, still a nice suit at $300. Ties I get at Marshall's, TJ Max or Winner's (Canadian version of TJ Max) and never pay more than $20 for designer ties, same goes with shirts, I really like the Alfred Sung and D&G shirts, usually between $50-$100. Most of my shirts are french cuff. While in Italy last year there are a few "outlets" which carry all the top designers at significantly reduced prices, you just gotta dig for your size as they rarely have more than 1 of the same item.

 

RMX - I'm going to try to offer Clothing 101. Sorry in advance for the huge treatise. And since there’s obviously a ton more to talk about, I’m obviously going to dwell on stuff I shouldn’t and skip stuff I shouldn’t, so basically let me know if you want me to go into more details. This will just scratch the surface and, as they say, there’s plenty more where it came from.

First of all, the best advice you can get is generally to avoid "designers" at all cost. By and large, they make complete junk. As they say, a sucker is born every day. You are paying for name only. This regards Armani in particular - the the standard "wrong" choice - as well as all the others. The prices are due almost exclusively to the brand only. There is a difference between good clothing and expensive clothing. Don't get me wrong: the best clothing will also be expensive - just, for the right reasons. So, I appologize in advance to all the Armani patrons, but it's mostly complete rubbish, save for the "Classico" line, the prices of which are hugely inflated beyond its quality. And by quality, I mean: fit, construction, and fabric. Brands should only be considered quality to the extent that they excel in these three categories, not because of the brand per se.

Anyway... here goes....

First, I should say something about the three levels at which mens clothing can be bought. These are basically: reeady to wear (hereinafter RTW), made-to-measure (hereinafter MTM), and bespoke. RTW comes in sizes (i.e. 40R, 42S, etc.) This is what you go to a store and can try on. MTM is when the company will take your exact measurements and adjust the sizing of a standard style in their book. You can generally specify differenet features, such as adding a ticket pocket, number of vents, and so on. But the pattern they already have will be adjusted to you. Full bespoke, by contrast, is a completely custom garment. You dictate how you want the shoulders (roped, natural Neapolitan, etc) - how you want everything. A pattern is made for you (or, in the case of shoes, a last - but more on that later). There will be multiple fittings until the clothing is just right.

So: shirts. For me, fit is about a million times more important than everything else on shirts. Particularly in the United States, this is a huge problem, as almost all RTW shirts made for the U.S. market are cut like sails and thus fit like a tent. They are not slim and even the "slim" models are not slim. This poses real problems, but there are real solutions.

As for your particular lineup... Purists would cringe at the non-iron, but if it works for you, go for it. BB shirts are also notorious for the tent-like design, but if you are happy with the fit, again, go for it. I can't imagine them fitting someone properly who isn't extremely overweight. They also have very low armholes (high armholes, in both shirts and jackets, help give a greater range of motion, allowing greater ease of movement).

So, what would I do if I were you? As I say, fit is vital to me in shirts and can't stand that bunching you get in the waist with most American shirts. Your options are of course limited to you budget. Fit is primary here, then fabric, then construction. By construction, here, I don't mean handmade vs. machine made, because some of the top makers make their shirts entirely by machine. Indeed, I have spoken to Alex Kabbaz at length about this. He makes, arguably, the best shirt in the business. It is full bespoke and $600 a shirt (with a very large minimum order). He makes them entirely by machine. By construction in the shirt context, I mean the armhole height, and so on. In any event, you want shirts that fit. Some of the slimmer RTW include Barba (which can be found on Ebay from time to time, albeit over $100) and Turnbull and Asser. The Borrelli Italian-market shirts are slim, but their American market ones are not. In any event, the fact is that with RTW, the fit is never going to be as good as it can be.

So, unless you want to be spending $300+ for some of the top brands' MTM, or costly bespoke, my advice to you would to be to go with an Asian tailor. Again, I'm not sure what your budget is, but the Asian tailoring business is amazing for someone like you, looking for good stuff but maybe not ready for Kabbaz prices.

I recommend WW Chan. www.wwchan.com They make routine trips to the United States. On these trips, they have fabric specials for shirts, which are $78 a shirt. These are MTM shirts, made to your measurements. If it's at all possible for you to be in one of the cities they visit, I highly recommend them. If you cannot see them, the next best thing would be to try to take your measurements and send them to Chan. This can also be done with Jantzen. Jantzen charges even less, under $50 a shirt from what I understand, and makes a nice shirt, but turnaround can be very slow. I can't speak for Jantzen as I have never tried them. I think Chan is great, but I'm in New York and can see them all the time.

So, in short, I would try to get shirts made for you. Mucking around with ill-fitting RTW just isn't worth it when there are such cheap options out there. I still buy the odd Turnbull shirt as their fabrics are unique.

Ties aren’t so important as fit and so on is less relevant. Buy the ones that you like the look of. Generally woven is better than printed, and “seven folds” are really the best, this isn’t really important unless you are clothes-obsessed. [ahem… ] Seven folds are basically made from one piece of silk folded up, rather than having interlining etc.
Some of my favorite ties are not seven folds, so go figure. It’s not that vital IMO.

Well, this is a biggie. Jackets can be either: fused, half-canvased, or fully canvased. A top quality suit is always fully canvased.

Fused means a fabric has been literally heat glued to the underside of the jacket's wool fabric. The majority of suits and sport jackets that you can buy are fused. (That includes Armani, folks!) Fused fabric gives the wool body, but makes the wool thicker and stiffer. It also stiffens over time, eventually causing the fabric of the suit to look bad. Avoid at all costs.

Half-canvased has a fused interlining in the body but the lapels are canvas stitched as opposed to fused. The canvas interlining in the lapels can be either hand stitched or machine stitched. You can most often tell whether a fused suit is half-canvassed by rubbing together the front and the back of the lapel between your fingers. If the lapels run over each other smoothly, chances are it the lapels are fused (the fusible fabric is very smooth). If it feels a bit rough -- like canvas -- that means it is a canvassed lapel. In some half-canvas suits, you can even see pad-stitch marks (dimples) on the underside of the lapel. A prime example of a half-canvased jacket are those by Polo. (They are made by Cornelliani for Ralph Lauren.)

Fully canvased means a coat where a canvas interlining has been stitched to the seams of the entire front of the jacket from the shoulders to the botton hem. This interlining gives the jacket its shape without relying on fusible fabric. Thus, the wool is most natural (i.e. thin, supple, and breathable). You can most easily tell whether a suit is fused or unfused by pinching some fabric above the chest pocket; in an unfused suit, the fabric will feel just as thin as the fabric at the back of the coat, whereas in a fused suit is will feel thicker. If you think it might feel a little bit thicker, that probably means that it is (in other words, once you perform the pinch test on an unfused suit, you will have no trouble telling in the future).

The other vital thing to consider is silhouette. People may name-drop Brioni or Kiton, because they know it's expensive, but they make extremely different jackets, and buyers should consider this when thinking about what's right for them. Brioni does a Roman cut, much more structured in the shoulder and chest. Kiton is from Naples: far softer. Softer shoulder, softer everything. Not every silhouette is right for every bodytype. I think heavier people can look quite silly in Neapolitan silhouettes, whereas a structured look can be much more flattering. I would find it unusual for someone to have a balanced mix of silhouettes in their closet, as one will suit their body above others, in my opinion. That said, in terms of bespoke, tailors generally have a house style. This is particularly so in Savile Row, where they do a rather structured cut, with the exception of Anderson & Sheppard. But a good tailor should, in my opinion, tweak the silhouette, shoulder padding, and so on, to suit your body structure. Some won't budge an inch on it, so picking your tailor may often depend on the kind of silhouette you are looking for.

Ok, turning to your options. $600 can get you a fully canvassed suit depending on your RTW size. Ebay is your best bet. $600 is decent money in Ebay-land for nice clothing. If RTW fits you, great. I'd keep an eye out for the Polo clothing on Ebay in general. There's a lot, and so it's really cheap relative to MSRP, is nice quality, and has great style. Sadly (or not, depending on how you look at it), nobody really makes my size RTW so my only options are pretty much limited to bespoke (or MTM).

If we’re talking $300 or less, go with Allen Edmonds, Alden, or the Brooks Brothers Peals on sale (which are made by Crockett and Jones, mostly, these days, to Benchgrade standards). These three are all excellent choice at that price point. And you're not missing anything: Ferragamos are basically complete trash unless you are looking at the Tramezza line, which are extremely overpriced for the quality. So, keep your eye out for those brands if you are looking in that lower price range, which it seems you are. Where to look for these? Sales, both online and in stores; outlets – I think Allen Edmonds has outlets. And of course Ebay.

By the way, the best RTW maker, in my opinion, is Edward Green. Lobb makes, obviously, a great shoe (and, in fact, my favorite RTW shoe I own) but only a few of their models stand out, whereas Edward Green’s are all to die for.

There are, of course, MTM and bespoke options for shoes just like with other clothing. Tony, who runs Edward Green’s bespoke program, having come over from Cleverley, is an absolute genius. He is a true artist.

Ok, I take back everything I just said. Haha. Seriously though, if you find yourself getting mucky a lot, you’re obviously going to want to pick your clothes accordingly. But I still don’t see why that should exclude from getting, say, a decent pair of Allen Edmonds. Just polish them often, keep them in good shape with shoe trees, and they’ll last just fine.
By the way, RL slacks can be had for super duper cheap on Ebay, so keep your eyes open so ruining them won’t be such a heartbreak.
I don’t know what else to suggest really. Interestingly, most tailors hate super fine fabrics – all this Super 150s, Super 180s stuff. You won’t see any of the Savile Row houses working with that stuff. The drape isn’t nice, and the sturdiness isn’t there.

Anyway, there it is. Kind of a quick overview, but just let me know if I can elaborate or if you have any questions.

 

Ties have existed since the 1400s, when they were used to wipe one's mouth.

I would never pay more than $25 for a tie. I have ruined some $100+ ties...never again

In today's world, even JC Penny and Sears have dress decent shirts in sizes up to 18 1/2 x 38 for around $25-$30 (I wear 18 1/2 x 33) ....you really don't want to ruin $100+ shirts at work. There are a few places than will still custom tailor a half way decent cotton shirt for around $40.

There are people that can custom tailor a suit of decent quality, with fully lined pants, for about $500. I would never wear a $2000 suit to work.

I just bought some suede "overshirts" at JC Penney on sale at 75% off....they were $65 to begin with. At that price, I don't care if they get ruined!!

Bass makes decent everyday shoes for around $100. Personally, I don't spend a lot of money on shoes. Cole-Hahn are decent every day shoes too, but about $150...but sometimes on sale sometimes as low as $50 on a discontinued style. I prefer slippers to tie shoes for dress...just more comfortable to me...

I usually just wear solid black "athletic" shoes, with a sport coat and slacks, as I am often on my feet a lot. You can get something decent for under $50

I let my wife buy everyday stuff for me, but I buy the good stuff myself. She just got me a camel's hair/cashmire beige blazer with a $300 price tag at Nordstrom's Rack for $40, and a couple of Lacoste polo shirts for $12 each!!!

The best time to buy is right after the end of a season...

 

Good advice from zjpj!

I have a Zegna suit (dark grey w/thin pinstripes) from the Sartorial line, which has a Neapolitan cut and is double vented.

It has a canvased front, basted lapels, handpicked lapel edges but without handsewn buttonholes.

 

I'm still signing them for the time-being. If you've followed my posts at all since late summer, this shouldn't be much of a surprise. I've taken the music/dj thing about as far as it can go, I'm pretty much at the top of my earning potential but the drive just isn't there like it used to be. I have firm booking offers all the way to the end of April, however I have "vacated the premesis" so-to-speak in my mind. At 37 I cannot deal with the late nights and constant travel as well as I did even a few years back. Eight constant years of travel. Enough already!

So I sought-out and accepted a position as a commercial real estate agent and do the music thing on the weekends (as always). I don't know how much longer I'll be bothering with it, though. I'll likely stop as soon as I sell something. That shouldn't be long as I already have listings a few weeks in.

Count on a long post about all this in the biz section pretty soon.

RMX

 

ZipJ, thank you for that primer. Actually, all of you, thanks a LOT.

Here's something to consider. I'm about 5'10" and weigh around 210. My weight, depending on whether I'm in the gym or not, can swing between 220 and 190. I've dropped as much as 20 lbs in 6 weeks in the past and worry if I do so again, I'll be buying new clothes again.

In any event, one thing that I always notice is when someone looks like they have tailored clothes. I see this on TV a lot, particularly on shows like O'Reilly and Hannity. Some guests show up on there looking totally frumpy and some have knockout, perfectly-fitting suits. One thing I always notice is shirtcollar fit on these people. I also notice how peoples' shoulders look in suit jackets. Is this all because their clothes are tailored?

Once I get a sale or two under my belt, I'll go for another round of clothes. This was my main reason for asking.

RMX

 

Depends....some guests just grabbed whatever was in the hamper...tailored or not and went out on the set.

If you have proportions that are slightly off, then you run the risk of looking like a walking pile of dirty laundry in something that's off the rack...too tight in the shoulders, too long in the inseam type of thing.

Get a suit tailored to you as soon as you can. You will feel and look much better wearing something that's made for you and not Joseph Bleaux.

 

And when you have a full closet of suits, a tact that I take is to pin a label on the jacket collar for the weight range that they fit.

195. 200. 210. 290. Etc.

 

I have had good luck with Nordstroms shirts, particularly white, which I wear often. I have tried more and less expensive and these work well under a suit.

If you are looking for business casual Nautica is a reasonable alternative to RL. For more casual you may want to check out Golf brands, Norman etc, can be had online from golf retailers on good sales.

Shoes, try Kenneth Cole. Wear well and fit me better than Cole Hann and others. The square toe oxford "Money" is particularly comfy and works with every thing from suits to jeans-

 

Listen to ZipJ, ignore all others. And no square toes.

 

REMIX I am in the same boat as you. I ruin anything good I have. I am a 20 year old college student for those of you that don't know me. I love wrinkle and iron free this is for both slacks and shirts. I don't have time for dry cleaning or to iron my clothes. Also, shoes I would rather go through 3 pairs of 50-100 shoes then one pair of $300 ones. That way you can get black, brown, tassles no tassles etc. Also I keep keys, a phone, cash, and a pen or pencil in my pockets. If your pants aren't stain free they better be lined or else you will end up with marks on the front of your pants if you carry a lot of stuff. I think it is more important that your clothes fit then who makes them or what they cost. I try and buy what fits me right, and not worry about the money. I hate ruining something expense that's why I choose not to buy them even though I can afford more expensive stuff. There is nothing worse then staining an expensive shirt or pants. I would rather be able to throw them out or put them into around the house use without being pissed at myself. Just my two cents.
Erik

 

I think we should all just be able to wear what we want, who is to say that we need to wear suits to work. I dont mind them, but its puzzling.

 

Each his own...

Sorry to offend Mr. Blackwell