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Discussion in 'F1' started by Jackie and bill, Nov 30, 2019.
I hear the same for the last 5 years. No wait, it must be 10 years now, unless it's 15 years ...
I think terrific is a stretch. Hamilton is a very good driver and is clearly the best of the old guard that remains in F1. However, I believe that if he was paired with Alonso at Mercedes, they would be dueling for championships with Alonso having a marginally superior record. A terrific driver would have outscored Alonso instead of tying him, would not have been outscored by Button, and would not have had one of his championships stolen by Rosberg.
I don't know where you get it from that Alonso has "a marginally superior record" than Hamilton; the facts don't support that statement.
Its seems that you forget about 2007, when Hamilton, a rookie, finished 2nd in the championship before the twice WDC Alonso.
If you don't call that terrific, you must be hard to please.
Tell us which other rookie was in contention for the title until the last GP, and only missed it by one point.
I couldn't help looking at the stats regarding this.
During the years they were paired, Hamilton out-ranked Rosberg 3 times out of 4, winning 32GPs against 22, and 2 WDCs against One.
Even in 2016, the year he won the championship, Nico won 1 GP less than Hamilton.
Hamilton was terrific early in his career, but decent at best until he landed his seat at Mercedes.
Many seem to forget Hamilton looked merely average when he was busy taking out Felipe Massa right and left in 2011. Go back and see who team principals consistently voted the best performing driver in the first half of this decade. Hamilton wasn't even in the discussion and the guy who won four championships and currently drives for Ferrari didn't win either. Alonso was the best driver during that time, especially during 2012 when he was absolutely untouchable.
This is why I would have loved to see them go head to head instead of him beating second tier drivers like Rosberg and Bottas.
It doesn't change the fact that Rosberg still took the championship from him. Hamilton's supporters blame his car, but he had some lousy starts that year.
Humm, you say previously he wasn't terrific ...
If Alonso is so good, why did he get beaten 4 years on the trot by Vettel then ?
The Strad wrote: "I hate the guy, the whole ridiculous style of his. But one must admit, he is a terrific driver ..."
That's a frank and honest opinion which I accept and respect.
But trying to deny the achievements of a driver when everything points out to his exceptional career is not dignified.
I fully accept that.
I was very glad that Nico won the championship, if only because it proved the critics that the championship wasn't "arranged" as they claimed.
I liked Rosberg and still believe he was as fast as Hamilton, but less of a racer.
You say “everything points out to his exceptional career,” but you didn’t acknowledge 2009-2013...
Two years of excellence followed by five of mediocrity does not a terrific career make. After seven years in Formula 1, he had one championship. The second half of his career has been great, but his only real competition was his second class teammates and Vettel last season. That’s not Hamilton’s fault, but it doesn’t make his career look better than it is.
Vettel won three of his championships in the second most dominant car in F1 history. Hamilton has had the most dominant car. Alonso drove the wheels off those subpar Ferraris and came within a few points of clinching 2012, and that speaks volumes. Look at how Massa improved after he left Ferrari for Williams. That showed he could still drive. Massa even ranks Alonso as up there with Schumacher.
I’ve already said I believe he’s one of the two best of the old guard with Alonso being the only other driver who could consistently challenge him and beat him, if given the opportunity, and that’s a huge compliment, as I think very highly of Alonso. I’m not sure how that constitutes being undignified...
Oh, and Vettel has shown that he doesn’t deserve to be in the discussion, despite him winning twice as much as Alonso, and I like Vettel now.
By the way, when I think of terrific, I think of Fangio, Lauda, Gilles Villeneuve, Senna, Prost, and Schumacher.
When I think of great, I think of Alonso and Hamilton.
I think both Leclerc and Verstappen have the potential to be terrific.
Lewis beat a 2 time champion his rookie year, Senna, Prost, Schumi, has'nt done this, not saying they are'nt still great. Also Lewis still won races 2009-2013, in a car that was not great. Button said he has never seen a driver faster in qualifying than Lewis. Alonso rates Lewis above himself when voted him top 5 of all time. Lewis never had a team mate he didn't beat. When Lewis went to Mercedes he beat Rosberg the first year in a car that was new to him, despite Rosberg having a 3 year head start with the car/team. Yet i see people giving Senna a pass even though Prost beat him, giving Schumi a pass when he never had a champion team mate etc
Hi there. I am new here. Interesting question. I don't really believe that Lewis can go to Ferrari in 2021. I think he is great with Mercedes and in Ferrari we have another future star - Leclerc
The thing I find interesting is that Toto basically says it’s ok for LH to talk to other teams, as Toto knows MB have a vastly superior car and will win with or without LH. If LH went to Ferrari MB would most likely grab MV or DR but at the end of the day we don’t know which manufacturer is going to stay in F1 come 2021.
Ferrari don’t need LH as their problem isn’t drivers, it is chassis/aero in which they are deficient. Tire degradation was a major problem with the Ferrari this year, whereas MB was the best since 2018. Allison leaving Ferrari and going to an already dominant MB didn’t help matters.
It’s an engineering championship first and foremost-guys like lauda, senna, Prost and also Schumey had to give feedback to engineers but now it’s all about simulators and sensors that provide far more info to the engineers than a driver ever could. It’s technology run amok imho.
Slight addition to the problems you listed
All so true. That is what Formula One is and always has been. The highest tech racing machines on the planet.
'Love it as is; 'always have, 'always will. (unless even more tech innovation is removed)
For those that don't, as always, IndyCar is there for their lower tech (heck, they're spec) real (close, not "real") open wheel racing needs.
If Toto knows he can win without Lewis why not save a ton of money and get the cheapest guy on the grid, maybe Kvyatt or some one?
Toto said Schumacher played a helpful role in developing the early Mercedes, this goes against your thought that drivers are not much needed in giving feed back
In all fairness, Senna, Prost, and Schumacher weren’t Ron Dennis’s baby. Yes, Hamilton has won at least one race in each season he has competed. Alonso nearly won a championship in a car that had no business winning in 2012. Had it not been for Romain Grosjean taking Alonso out in Spa, history would have been very different. Also, what do you expect Alonso to say, that he’s better than Hamilton? Lewis never had a teammate he didn’t beat? He tied Alonso in points, got beat by Button in 2011 and lost a championship to Rosberg. He’s not bulletproof. Regarding Schumacher, he had far more competition from those outside of Ferrari than Hamilton has had from outside of Mercedes.
Seriously, I’ve already said that Hamilton is great, but that doesn’t seem to be enough for some of the “tifosi” wearing gray tinted glasses here.
At this stage, I don’t even care if he comes to Ferrari, because it will be far more entertaining/interesting than watching Leclerc whip Vettel again.
I will say that I will consider him one of the greatest drivers of all time if he wins a championship with Ferrari. That would mean that he has seven plus championships with three different teams, and that is very impressive. However, he would have to work harder than ever to beat Leclerc. He is not Button, Rosberg, or Bottas, and we all saw how he manhandled Bottas in Brazil.
Yes i forgot to mention that I respect your post, you give Ham credit that's do, no problem. However i disagree about Schumi's competition being harder. Actually many would say Schumi got lucky when Senna died, his greatest main rival. I would say Schumi's wins and championships would be lesser if Senna remained. On the other hand all of Ham's rivals remained (Alonso, Vettel, Kimi, Massa now Verstappen). Also you talk about him being Ron Dennis baby, yes team leaders back which driver they feel is best, nothing new. Now Ross Brawn/Todt, surely Schumi was their baby!
Piquet did that for the sake of having a laugh and destabilize opponents. I think it was very funny. Imagine him and Lauda back then, teaming up to trick the people on the paddock .
Hamilton DESTROYED Rosberg during their time with Dino Chiesa in karting.
Lewis will only go to the team that has the best car. Period. His only focus is championship 7 and 8 to beat Michael. If he gets number 7 in 2020, this is his only play. I think he will wait as long as possible to make a decision so he has a better chance of knowing which car will be best.
Because Red Bull had the unanimously faster and unchallenged car? Duh. That's like asking why is a car faster than a bicycle...
But when it rained...Alonso showed his talent. The Malaysian gp comes to mind...
That's the way a real champion should think: always try to get the best car and work with the best team, rather that devote your talent to a particular constructor.
Fangio did it before him, so did Graham Hill, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, or Michael Schumacher.
Bottas would have won the F1 championship this year and yes he would have won it without Lewis being on the team, and I don't rate him as a top tier driver.
Schumey-that was back in 2012 when there was testing allowed, and it was 6-7 years ago; technology has vastly improved. Of course, liberal in season testing would allow teams such as Ferrari and RB to narrow/close the gap, develop more powerful engines etc. That's why MB has been so dominant-and why the schumey/Ferrari combo back in the day was so devastating against vastly superior competition than MB is facing today.
Maybe the FIA can look the other way (as it did with MB) if Ferrari and RB pull one of these:
Bottas finished, 3rd 2017 and 5th 2018, so yes they needed Lewis, as driving the Mercedes does'nt guarantee a championship. I doubt there is a substantial difference in testing rules in 2012 compared to now, some one chime in on this. If so that means Lewis assisted Mclaren with testing the successful 2007 and 2008 car, you are right the car Ham won in 2008 had less technology than today, which shows Ham can adapt to both platforms
Rosberg > Bottas
HAM+ROS took the most points off the table, consistently placing themselves 1st or 2nd.