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Lexus ISF vs Ferrari Enzo F-1 trans.

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by mpartridgeferrari, Mar 6, 2008.

  1. mpartridgeferrari

    Feb 14, 2008
    108
    Cleveland Ohio
    Full Name:
    MIKE
    Im having a hard time swallowing this one. My brother works for a Lexus dealership and they recently have recieved there first few Lexus ISF's. I have spend countless times telling him that there is no way that there f-1 style transmission shifts faster and cleaner than an enzo. He called me today and read and article with the stats af the two cars and what he is telling me is that while the enzo shifts at 15 milliseconds, the lexus actually shifts at 10 milliseconds. I still find this hard to believe. Let me know if you have any info that will make me feel better about this, I just cant believe that a $70k lexus has more technolegy than a 1.2 million dollar supercar.
     
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  3. Alesnik-MD

    Alesnik-MD Formula Junior
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    Aug 28, 2006
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    I think shift times for that F1 gearbox is more like 150 milliseconds (circa 2003 software). The 430 Scuderia is supposed to shift in about 65 milliseconds, almost half the time compared to the 599 100 milliseconds (which also shifts faster than the Enzo due to the updated software). The current Formula 1 F2008 shifts in about 40 milliseconds IIRC. I don't believe the Lexus could shift in 10 milliseconds with a single clutch, unless perhaps it has a twin clutch setup like that of the Nissan GT-R.

    - Joe
     
  4. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

    Feb 13, 2004
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    SFL
    If he told you 10 MS he needs to go back for more training....
     
  5. DriveAfterDark

    DriveAfterDark F1 Veteran

    Jan 1, 2007
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    Norway
    No. No. No.

    If it actually was faster than 430 Scuderia's there would be a media storm by now...
     
  6. Pantera

    Pantera F1 Rookie

    Nov 6, 2004
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    10+
     
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  8. mpartridgeferrari

    Feb 14, 2008
    108
    Cleveland Ohio
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    MIKE
    sorry i had the times mixed up. the enzo is 0.15 and the lexus is 0.1.
     
  9. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

    Feb 18, 2007
    9,718
    Stuttgart, Germany
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    Florian
    Remember the Enzo is a 2002 car. That's 6 years now...
     
  10. mpartridgeferrari

    Feb 14, 2008
    108
    Cleveland Ohio
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    MIKE
    I understand the enzo but what about the 599 gtb and the scuderia? ive looked up the specs and it shows that the lexus and the 599 are the same. Im not 100% what the scuderia is.
     
  11. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

    Feb 13, 2004
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    Yeah but isn't the Lexus a automatic with a torque converter that simply has shift paddles?

    The Ferrari ones are actual manuals with automated clutches.
     
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  13. ddemuro

    ddemuro Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2006
    2,121
    San Diego
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    Doug
    Why is this a big deal?

    The Direct-Shift Gearbox now in use in Audis and Volkswagens uses a dual clutch system, allowing for upshifts in eight milliseconds (source). Not only is that notably faster than either the IS-F or the Enzo, it's also available on cars which are significantly cheaper, like the Audi A3 and even some version of the Volkswagen Rabbit (Golf overseas).

    Because the IS-F has eight gears, the upshifts had better be pretty quick because you're going to go through a lot of them. It uses a standard automatic (yes, with a torque converter) but Lexus developed some sort of 'torque converter lockup' that makes it shift faster than a normal automatic (source). I don't know any exact times, but that's the technology.
     
  14. TexasF355F1

    TexasF355F1 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Feb 2, 2004
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    The IS-F isn't even a true semi-auto tranny, so it's irrelevant.

    I'm sort of becoming annoyed by people who have the auto-paddles and think they're driving true semi-autos.
     
  15. Alex1015

    Alex1015 Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2005
    941
    USA
    This is a great point. From a technical standpoint the Lexus is still a true automatic with a torque converter whereas the Enzo is closer to a traditional manual but the actuation is performed by hydraulics instead of a gear lever.
     
  16. Fred2

    Fred2 F1 World Champ
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    Jan 2, 2005
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    nj
    And all the above is why paddle shifters are played out.
    However,
    3 pedals and a stick of the floor will always be cool.
     
  17. GatorGregFerrari

    Feb 3, 2008
    70
    Central Fla
    Full Name:
    GatorGreg
    Correct, the IS-F is a fancy automatic tranny, not a true manual. My mom also has the steering wheel buttons on her plain Lexus IS, but again it's just an auto tranny. On the other hand, my Toyota MR2 Spyder has a 6 spd "Sequential Manual Transmission" which is more like the Ferrari's in that it is a traditional manual tranny w/ a clutch but has no clutch pedal because it's operated hydraulically via either the buttons on the steering wheel or a floor mounted shifter. Unfortunately, the SMT in the MR-2 was "dumbed down" quite a bit, so it's not a super fast shifter - but it's still a lot of fun. Supposedly this was done for longevity purposes.
     
  18. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

    Feb 13, 2004
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    +1!
     
  19. wingfeather

    wingfeather F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2007
    3,493
    rock bottom
    This HUGE difference is incomprehensible to the general public. All they know is "paddles".
     
  20. DriveAfterDark

    DriveAfterDark F1 Veteran

    Jan 1, 2007
    8,823
    Norway

    +1! To top it all a 360 Spider flew by us today (the noise was great) and a guy stood next to me "was that a Lamborghini?". Conclusion: Only real car nuts know these sort of things...
     
  21. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
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    Yes, and because of this difference the speeds are not strictly comparable. In the Lexus what is being measured is the actuation time not the total shift time. Again auto makers try and obfuscate via statistics. I've had this same discussion with BMW owners who confuse paddle shift autos with F1 type boxes.
     
  22. Fred2

    Fred2 F1 World Champ
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    Jan 2, 2005
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    And REAL F1 type boxes have engagement dogs on the gears, not syncro rings like street "F1" gear boxes.
     
  23. nopassn

    nopassn Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2003
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    Roy
    All I know is that 6 year old Enzo will "paddle" the new Lexus - no matter how fast it shifts... ;)
     
  24. Cheetah

    Cheetah Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2004
    342
    Charlotte
    Full Name:
    Alan
    The paddles are the biggest disappointment on my IS (350 not F).
    I wish they would've invested the development money somewhere else....handling maybe.
    Great car, great tranny....but the paddles are a gimmick
     
  25. scycle2020

    scycle2020 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2004
    3,458
    potomac
    Very true, the ISf is a regular automatic with a triptronic like shifting, ...nothing like the F1, Egear, SMG or DSG or upcoming BMW m3 dct tranny.....also, I have read the DSG shifts in 200 milliseconds, not 10 milliseconds...having driven several DSG cars, i can tell you it does not shift as fast as the Ferrari 430 tranny..........
     
  26. ddemuro

    ddemuro Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2006
    2,121
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    Doug
    Here is another source stating that DSG takes eight milliseconds to upshift. Do you have any sources aside from what you 'have read?' I know you may think the F430 upshifts faster, but I think that's just because the vehicle is so fast it seems like the upshifts take no time, especially versus the slower Audis and Volkswagens using DSG. The truth, though, is that it's going to be hard for anything to beat the twin clutches.
     
  27. technom3

    technom3 F1 Veteran
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    Mar 29, 2007
    6,391
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    Justin
    that had to have been a dreadful conversation between you and the BMW owners. I can talk **** because... well I have experiance with TONS of ignorant self-righteous, stuboron and or pigheaded BMW drivers. Also take a look at my name and you will see that I used to be "in" the community.

    Anyways, I am so sorry that you had to explain the difference to the BMW guys... they can be... somewhat... umm... dense at times.


    *Disclaimer*

    Not all BMW owners are this way... its just a sad group of people who spoil it for the whole brand... it all came about around the E-46 M3 era... Just watch any review with Jeremy Clarkson and an M3... LOL
     
  28. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
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    Ask me about my new 3 Coupe :)
     

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