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458 Lithium ion battery

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by john Owen, Jul 27, 2019.

  1. john Owen

    john Owen Rookie

    Dec 27, 2018
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    John Clement Owen
    Just fitted my newly delivered Lithium battery to my 458...Weighed both on some accurate bathroom scales...The standard Odessey Ferrari battery weighed 20.6Kg(45.32lbs) and my new Li-ion battery weighs exactly 7Kg(15.4lbs) translating to a saving of 13.6Kg(30lb)
    I chose the Antigravity battery as it provides excellent UK support and much better value than its competitors..The in-built safety re-start feature also swayed my decision towards Antigravity..Due to Ferrari's parasitic drain i went for the highest capacity battery they have which has 40Ah capacity and 1500 CA.. Anyone else done this on their 458s or any Ferrari for that matter ?
     
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  2. sampelligrino

    sampelligrino Formula Junior

    Apr 16, 2017
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    Paging Ray.... search function might be your friend. He's got a YouTube video and a thread or two on here about the Braillie lithium bat on the 458/488, seems to be your guy
     
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  3. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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  5. john Owen

    john Owen Rookie

    Dec 27, 2018
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    John Clement Owen
    I'm in the UK so i paid £880 inc VAT...It was much cheaper than all the others i considered...I've been following Antigravity's thread on Rennlist for a while and pretty impressed with them..I have a new 991.2GT3 RS WP coming in September and i intend getting another Li-ion battery for that as well..
     
  6. Randyslovis

    Randyslovis Formula Junior
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    I am far from a battery expert.
    I am under the assumption however that Lithium batteries are prone to XS heat production and need to stay "cool".
    In the 458 the battery is enclosed in front of the passenger with no ventilation that I am aware of. Any issue with heat/fire risk?
    Thx
     
  7. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3

    Mar 28, 2011
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    Looks like a reasonable cost alternative.

    Please let us know how it works out! Direct physical fit?

    Restart technology looks interesting. May drive a slight change to usage depending on how well it works...

    SV


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  8. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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  9. john Owen

    john Owen Rookie

    Dec 27, 2018
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    John Clement Owen
    I fitted it myself this afternoon..The worst part was getting the heavy OEM Odessey out due to its weight,,The Antigravity was a piece of cake to fit as its light weight makes it very easy to manoeuvre into place under the awkward to get to passenger footwell..It fits perfectly as its the same size as the OEM battery..I think the Antigravity battery is a great product in all ways,,
     
  10. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

    May 29, 2019
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    Go to Brailles website and look up the specs on that i48CS. There's a reason why it is so expensive compared to most other things on the market. The performance is nuts for what it is. If you want a Braille, but sped a bit less, there's the i48CX - which has the lowest weight I've yet to see from a full size group 48 battery.

    Don't forget to use a Li-Ion charger.
     
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  11. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    May 21, 2006
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    40 amp hours? That seems awfully low for this job.

    I ran the Braille i48CS in my 458 with good results. However, the i48CS I ran had a rating of 450 amp hours. I'm not sure about using one which has only 40 amp hours, unless there is some difference in how they are measuring their ratings. The Braille battery website does mention something about their 450 AH rating having the rough equivalence to a lead acid battery with 150 amp hours. You might want to look into the amp hour rating stuff a bit further.

    So, at first glance, the battery you're using there looks like it might be a little under powered for the job. Of course, a lot will have to do with how often you drive the car, how long you leave it sitting and whether or not you employ any sort of battery charger/tender. With my i48CS Braille battery (when used in my 458), I could leave the car sitting 2-3 weeks (no tender at all) and it would always start right up. The car's charging system recharged the battery to pretty much 100% during the course of any 20-30 minute drive. If you drive your car every few days, I think you'll probably be okay. The battery you have (while appearing to be on the smaller side to me), should be recharged and be capable of turning over the starter I think. The real issue might be if you leave the car sitting for a week or more. In that case, if the 40 AH rating is actuate, you might run into problems getting a clean start without the car issuing some electrical failure warnings.

    Also, your battery (if I read the website correctly) includes some sort of battery management system (BMS) in it. The Braille battery doesn't have that as far as I remember. My understanding, from researching around a bit when I was shopping for a Lithium battery, is that batteries which use BMS systems include those for a reason: namely, their cells aren't able to withstand a full discharge. In other words, they must have some method of protecting the battery from too much discharge, otherwise the cells can be damaged. You might want to contact Braille and discuss this further with one of their technical guys (perhaps Gary or someone at the company who is more knowledgeable about the subject than I am).

    Finally, when dealing with Lithium batteries, you definitely want to make sure you understand about the different chemistries used and also how well the battery (i.e. the lithium cells) can withstand things like vibration, total discharge, recharging, etc. Another area you might want to brush up on is how Lithium cells can grow dendrites and how that could potentially affect the cells inside your battery over time (and again, that's probably one of the main reasons your battery employs a BMS, whereas the Braille batteries don't need to). There is a reason Braille batteries are #1 and carry such a high price tag: you get what you pay for.

    A good test would be to leave your 458 sitting for two weeks and see if it starts. If not, then you're kinda just back to square one in my book.

    Keep us all posted on how it goes.

    Ray
     
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  12. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    Thanks Sam!

    Yeah, if you search YouTube, I have a couple of videos on my channel regarding the Braille battery and the Ferraris

    Ray
     
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  13. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

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    The 450 AH is a misprint. I got this confirmed from Braille a long time ago. It's 45Ah. That being said, due to the higher resting voltage of the Li-Ion batteries as well as their ability to provide high currents without too much of a voltage drop, it's not straight forward comparable to an AGM. If you check your pecs, your battery is equivalent to a 150Ah lead acid or AGM battery. The lightweight Braille I48CX which is basically half the I48CS has a 25Ah rating or a 75Ah lead acid/AGM equivalent rating. So my guess is that the 40Ah battery is plenty sufficient for the task.

    What's truly insane about the Braille I48CS is the cranking amps - and that's part of why it will always start the car. With that kind of capabilities combined with a battery type that will stay high in voltage even when run way down, makes it capable of always delivering enough voltage so taht theESC's etc. don't choke due to low voltage, and the starter motor get enough current to turn over.

    Generally speaking, one of the worst things for these electrical systems to combat, is low voltage. For this reason, I suspect that a 14 volt AGM battery could be a good replacement if one existed that fitted.
     
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  14. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    That's crazy; I never noticed that.

    I just looked at the YouTube video I posted a while back and sure enough, it says 50 Amp Hours right on top of the battery itself.

    What you said about the cranking amps is probably very important as well. I've run into cases where batteries have almost cranked the car, but then failed. Having a lot of cranking power is definitely something you want.

    Ray
     
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  15. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

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    Ah yes, 50Ah of course.

    Yep, the ability to deliver a lot of current easily, means you will see less of a voltage drop. And 2500+ ah of cranking amps is just mind blowing. That thing will probably start the car even when it's below 10% capacity.
     
  16. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3

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    The interesting feature of the Antigravity is it protests it self from under voltage by cutting off the drain but allows you to reconnect on command, if I read that right.

    So if the battery drains it will disconnect until you want to start the car. And still allow you startup. Nice.

    Tho it if cuts off the trickle current the locks won’t open and the windows won’t roll down when you open the doors. Of course you notice that right away. Once you command the battery to reconnect you will need to let the car proceed thru its start up sequences before trying to start the car (let it sit 10min or so).

    But it is better than being stuck!

    SV


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  17. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran
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    So are you getting one?


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  18. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3

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    Next time I need one which likely is soon (4 yr on interstate batt) I will consider it depending on the feedback... retail shows about $800 for it which is high but not stratospheric!

    SV


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  19. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran
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    It’s supposed to last much longer, so that helps the price amortization.


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  20. john Owen

    john Owen Rookie

    Dec 27, 2018
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    John Clement Owen
    Just arrived back home from a two week family vacation in the French Riviera..Went to my garage where my 458 had been sitting in for the whole time with no battery tender..The car fired up instantly with no sign of sluggishness from the starter..This is with my new Antigravity battery however if my 458 had still been fitted with its standard Odessey battery i'm pretty sure it would struggle to start up.
     
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  21. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

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    Sweet:)

    Oddessey usually makes a pretty nice battery. An Oddessey is definitely not a stock Ferrari battery. They are made by FLAMM.
     
  22. john Owen

    john Owen Rookie

    Dec 27, 2018
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    The battery i took off my 458 is definitely an Odessey Extreme which was made in July 2018 and has an official Ferrari sticker on it..Two weeks ago before i fitted my new Antigravity battery my 458 wouldn't start as there wasn't enough voltage coming from the Odessey battery to crank it..
     
  23. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    I don't understand the terminology used here really. 40Ah battery is literally 40 amps over one hour. The AGM is more than twice that. Assuming the test is standard, how is a 40Ah battery equal to a 150Ah battery? Again, assuming its a standard test.
     
  24. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

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    The 50 Amp hour Braille battery is equivalet to a 150 Amp hour battery because of this.

    The LI-ION battery has a "shelf charge" of 13.8 volts I think, or maybe 13.2. What ever.
    The AGM knly reaches 12.6 volts when fully charged.
    So what they mean is thst it basically takes 150 Amp hours for the lithium battery to drain from full charge to 12 volt.

    Not sure how else to explajn it. (And Pinot Noir is involved tonight)
     
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  25. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    My definition was wrong and found this definition of amp-hour rating for lead acid batteries:

    "AH:
    The ampere hour rating measures the amount of steady current a battery can supply for 20 hours at a certain amperage at 80° F without cell voltage falling below 1.75 volts."

    Since there are 6 cells in the car battery then the voltage limit is 10.5 volts. Other tests describe 100Ah battery as being able to supply 5 amps for 20 hours to fall to 10.5 volts which agrees with the definition. Apparently the ability for a lead acid battery to provide current over time is limited by Peukert’s Law which mathematically shows that the relationship is non-linear and the greater the discharge rate, the lower the delivered capacity. Perhaps the lithium batteries are just better at holding their voltage under higher current demand (flatter discharge rate) and not as subject to Peukert’s Law. That said, I don't see why the lithium has a stamped lower rating on a standard test.
     

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