LM 002 thread

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by Marcello, Dec 5, 2008.

  1. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    23,744
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I really have no idea. When LM's were new cars I was working in a Ferrari/Lamborghini dealer. We became a Lambo dealer for a few years and the entire Lamborghini package for a new dealer consisted of a sign and some patches for the shirts of the mechanics. We never had service training, not a single shop manual or tool. Every warranty claim was a negotiation and in the end to get money required threat of legal action. I had to replace an exhaust emission part on an LM and to get repaid I had to report them to the California ARB and file a complaint of failure to honor emission laws. We had a Countach QV destroy a set of cams in just a few miles and we never got repaid for that. It wasn't too long before we just gave the franchise back.

    Based on the lack of sophistication of the LIE I suspect Radio Shack supplied it. I would check with them. I have always serviced them based on their method of operation. It is just a poor cross of a Weber Marelli EFI and Bosch D Jetronic using crank sensors instead of trigger points. It is very rudimentary. Sorry I can't be more help.
     
  2. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,607
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Thank you Brian, I always appreciate you responding.

    I have figure most of the LIE out through testing at the terminals or back probing the LIE connectors while the car is running, however there some I can't (not smart enough) figure out without the console, so I bought one (not from radio shack).

    I ran through all the test in the WSM and they pass, and the car runs really strong however I am throwing a 2 blink code (lambda sensor poor mixture, lean). I am getting small exhaust leaks around the donut connection the header to the test pipe (cat pipe), and given that the 02 sensor is so close to that union (but upstream of it), would that be enough to trip the code?
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    23,744
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Upstream? I kind of doubt it. With 6 exhaust pulses I doubt there is much reversion there.
    Any idea what the mixture is? My personal dissatisfaction with LIE is its well deserved reputation for not keeping mixtures correct. One reason so few still have cats. My own had issues with the O2s constantly trying to keep it under control so I just unplugged them. Its OBD1 so even in California it did not need a functional CEL. I will say the throttle pot has primary authority for injector time (fuel mixture) and it is a very important setting. Everything else just modifies that input. You might try setting the pot to a more rich setting and use the screw in the box to bring it back to where you want the mixture static and see what happens.
     
  4. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,607
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Very helpful.

    I was wondering about the leak as the 02 sensor is just a few inches away. in any case, I sealed it, but haven't checked the CEL.

    I will check AF mixture this weekend, that was going to be my next step

    I spent quite a bit of time setting the TPS and bank flow, and they are dead on. The TPS did make a very big difference in engine running for sure. I set it by measuring voltage at the LIE (1 and 17 pin), and am curious as to how that compares to the LM Console reading (when I get it), which appears to measure in degrees (between 1.5 - 2)


    when you say screw, is there a screw on the LIE box that adjusts mixture? I recall seeing a hole, but never really looked at it. So, I would richen up the TPS and use the screw on the box with a AF meter attached?

    Second, its ok to unplug the 02 sensors and run without them?
     
  5. hashiriya

    hashiriya Formula Junior

    Feb 26, 2010
    328
    They are. Lambo intended those to be used with the same equipment.

    I wouldn't blame LIEs. Injectors themselves are pure crap, more by design. They run at 2 bar pressure, while being designed for 3.5 bar pressure. With 2 bar pressure they don't spray, they rather... piss, very much like accelerator pump on a carburetor. I don't have other words, I've done a test few days ago. The quality is far, far from ideal!
     
  6. hashiriya

    hashiriya Formula Junior

    Feb 26, 2010
    328
    BTW, what voltage you've set finally?

    There holes in the ECU, with a small screwdriver you'll be able to adjust mixture richer/leaner, although I'd seal the exhaust first (really important).
     
  7. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  8. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,607
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    I set the TPS to 0.2V with engine running at idle. The reading from the diagnostic procedure is 0.2V, but perhaps that should be static without the engine running (makes a big different with vacuum applied)

    I sealed the exhaust, no change still tripping the code.

    I also hooked up the AF meter and its indeed lean at 16.5.

    I will change the TPS reading to 0.2V at static and see what happens.
     
  9. S_AGATA

    S_AGATA Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 24, 2016
    237
    Mill Valley CA
    Full Name:
    Jon/Sean Sohaei

    I bought the red LM in New York and drove it to Chicago in 1995. I've had it ever since. I'll make sure to give you all the information by this weekend. The black LM is a few months newer and belongs to a friend of mine. I sourced it for him back in they day when he was looking for an LM. They've shared stables for a long time. Both are on the registry I believe.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    23,744
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    #84 Rifledriver, Nov 4, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
    Do not be afraid to set the throttle pot out of spec. I find in Weber Marelli it is a requirement due to our low density fuel. They were never designed to run on what we now call gas. I set them with the motor off.

    The hole in the LIE box is access for the mixture adjusting screw. Are you getting the same fault on both banks? Is it 16.5 with O2 disconnected? Make all adjustments with O2 disconnected. Once it is correct hook up O2 and recheck. You do not want the O2 manipulating things either during adjustment or diagnosis.

    Those same injectors work great in every other car they are used in right up until they are connected to an LIE system.
     
  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    23,744
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Thanks. I'll be out of town for a while but will get it when I get back.
     
  12. hashiriya

    hashiriya Formula Junior

    Feb 26, 2010
    328
    Well, it might not be the TPS itself, but the idle screws being too far out. Try to screw them in, maybe you'll get higher RPMs which is a good sign.
    There might be a case with everything being fine, but injectors being faulty, due to lower pressure or something similar.
     
  13. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,607
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Does the TPS contribute to AF mixture at idle? Doesn't seem to change when i move it around, but maybe I have a crappy meter. If i set the TPS without the motor running at 0.2V it trips a TPS code, so i set it with the motor running. So not sure how you can set it without the console.

    with both O2 sensors disconnected, at idle the AF mixture is bit high on one bank, and about perfect on the other.

    However, when I raise throttle to 2k rpm both banks are lean at between 16.5 - 17.
     
  14. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    23,744
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Exactly what we run into and why I set the TPS different. As I said, it has primary authority over fuel delivery. Id be curious how much alcohol is really in your fuel. I know despite the 10% claim it has been regularly tested at the pump over 20%. That is a 10% reduction in fuel density. Many non adaptive systems really do not like that.

    I don't know the history of how all this started. That history is very important to consider. You might also check the coolant temp sensors. I saw one LM that had them both changed with incorrect sensors in the wrong resistance range. Does not really explain the lean out off idle though.
     
  16. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,607
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    I put new water temp sensors in, both within ohm range.

    will it damage the engine to run that lean?
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    23,744
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    #90 Rifledriver, Nov 4, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
    I'd hate to do it. Lean makes it hot and that can be pretty destructive. It is exactly why most Ferrari engines run rich at the top end. It costs some horsepower but it doesn't wreck motors.

    I had an F40 here recently running lean and I was not the first guy to have the motor out to fix it. Seems my predecessor fixed the syptom and threw his hands up at the cause. We ran the throttle pots very rich on that one to get it right but I suspect some rocket scientist reflashed the ECU's. Wound up with a car that was a lot slower than if he just left it stock and made it run right. Made a lot of HP on the dyno when we were done.
     
  18. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,607
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    how about richening up via the screws on the box?
     
  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    23,744
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Can't hurt to try. Its really easy.

    Any chance you have a 4 gas analyzer? It is a vastly superior diagnostic and tuning tool. Personally I consider an AF measurement better than nothing but by a small margin.
     
  20. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,607
    Marin
    Full Name:
    Geno
    I don't, wish I did.

    how sensitive are the turns on the box?
     
  21. hashiriya

    hashiriya Formula Junior

    Feb 26, 2010
    328
    Just try them! Remember the turns, it can be clocked back, don't worry!
    In the end, I think you might be able to fix the a/f ratio if you fool the ECU with temp sensor just a bit. Some SplitSecond unit might work out. Just a suggestion to oxygenated fuel.
    It's the very reason why DD LM runs dull in the mid-RPM - the fuel density is different nowadays.
     
  22. S_AGATA

    S_AGATA Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 24, 2016
    237
    Mill Valley CA
    Full Name:
    Jon/Sean Sohaei
    Ferrari Chat says you've recieved too many messages. The last 8 digits for the Red LM are JLA12100.

    Please let me know what other details you need. I'll also post the BLK LM info when I go to storage.
     
  23. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    23,744
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Sorry, I was away and didn't see this. I cleared some out so you can PM me.

    If I can get entire VINs, colors inside and out and for US trucks the date of production on the door label that would be great. For those so inclined I am also trying to collect a photo or 3 of every truck. Those can be posted if you like.
     
  24. S_AGATA

    S_AGATA Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 24, 2016
    237
    Mill Valley CA
    Full Name:
    Jon/Sean Sohaei
    No worries. I'll get the full VINs this weekend along with some good photos.
     
  25. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 23, 2006
    6,204
    Italia
    #98 EMILIO, Jan 2, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  26. S_AGATA

    S_AGATA Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 24, 2016
    237
    Mill Valley CA
    Full Name:
    Jon/Sean Sohaei
    #99 S_AGATA, Feb 2, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  27. porkchopious

    porkchopious Formula Junior

    Oct 11, 2009
    294
    Oakton, VA
    Full Name:
    David

Share This Page