Long term Fuel Trim whacked out, with GRAPH | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Long term Fuel Trim whacked out, with GRAPH

Discussion in '348/355' started by ThomasK, Apr 15, 2018.

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  1. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    also, when i unplug my MAF the car sputters and dies. i thought safe running parameters were supposed to be used in order to keep the car running, using the TPS as feedback?
     
  2. drbob101

    drbob101 F1 Rookie
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    Nov 26, 2012
    3,814
    Tinton Falls, NJ
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    Bob Ferraris
    If ltft is lean it could be compensating for a leaking (rich) injector
     
  3. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,508
    Lake Villa IL
    Leaking /open injector would force fuel trims negative.

    Positive fuel trim would be from clogged or low output injector (if an injector problem, I think unlikely at this point)
     
    drbob101 likes this.
  4. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    I am really suspecting these throttle plates. On my car bank 1linkage starts to open before bank 2. I haven't messed with them except for unbolting them off the car and bolting them back on. Haven't touched then adjustments.
    May have to give up and take to local dealer to have throttles synced with the proper tools.
    Anywhere from idle to 4000 rpm my ltft is 20% and stays there.
    If it were a clogged injector it would maybe get better at idle but get worse when throttled up.
    I still want to verify fuel pressure on that bank...
     
  5. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
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    Jan 27, 2014
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    Thomas,

    Sorry for not weighing in sooner.......just to eliminate the vacuum leak possibility could you note the ST and LT readings at idle (warmed up, closed loop) then advance and hold RPMs to 2500 for two minutes. If you see ST drop immediately and LT starts falling that indicates a vacuum leak. I realize you just posted that LT does not change from idle to 4000 rpm but the nature of how it works means it takes a while for LT to actually drop and that it won't drop if the rpms are constantly changing.

    At least this test will put you on the right path.
     
  6. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    Thanks. I did do that test last night and have the data. No change to ltft from idle to 4k. I let it idle for 30 seconds or so and then held throttle at 1.5k and 2.5k for 30 seconds each.
    I'll post graph in a bit because when I did that the stft on each side go in opposite directions by as much as 8%
     
  7. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    The opposite direction stft adjustments tells me that the banks are out of balance. Once I start applying throttle the bank 1 goes lean and stft increase and the bank2 goes rich relative to the other side maybe? Once I get to work I'll post the graphs it will be clear.
     
  8. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    see short term fuel trims relative to RPM (blue). when i hold at 2000 rpm the STFTs go opposite at a higher magnitude than i would think is normal.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  9. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
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    Frankly, I have never seen one Bank offsetting the other Bank like this. You have a reverse correlation between the banks based on the data. For the ECU to do that it is getting confused signalling. It seems like the O2 sensors are cross wired or connected wrong. Leaking injectors usually only impact one Bank independent of the other.
     
    taz355 likes this.
  10. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
    6,508
    Lake Villa IL
    Need this along with long terms to see the whole picture.
     
  11. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    ive double checked that all 4 o2 sensors are connected properly. upstream to blue tape harness, etc.
    i agree...its bizarre.

    LTFT are constant throughout this time frame, they dont even change.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    im cobbling together some fuel fittings to make up a fuel pressure tester. i need to see what the FP is doing.
     
  13. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    intake butterfly related? seems to be directly affected when i throttled up to 2k
     
  14. jjtjr

    jjtjr Formula Junior

    Aug 29, 2016
    680
    Vermont
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    john truskowski
    Also, I would double check the O2 sensor (pre and post cat) to make sure that they didn't get swapped.
     
  15. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    upstream o2s hooked to blue tape harness plugs, so should be correct.
     
  16. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 14, 2011
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    Tim Dee
    Have you checked the O-rings seals on the injectors?
     
  17. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
    6,508
    Lake Villa IL
    Did you check fuel trims before the major service?

    Did you check cam timing?
     
  18. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    No I didn't check fuel trims before. What prompted me to check post major is the p1128 code. I did a major plus almost a full engine rebuild outside of liners and rings. Leak down was tested on heads and block separately and all within a few % of each other.
    I didn't technically degree the cams. I marked all gears and old belts in their relative positions in TDC. I verified TDC with dial indicator on piston 1 and all the family marks lined up at the same time. It is timed the same way as it was previously.
     
  19. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
    6,508
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    Without knowing trims before, I would wonder if part of this problem is a bank to bank variance with cam timing if it was never checked.
     
  20. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
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    [​IMG]

    Okay this is helpful. Bank 1 is pegged positive for LTFT. Bank 2 is okay and I'm going to ignore what is going on with STFT on both Banks. I'm probably telling you what you already know (so bear with me as I walk through the logic with you)......it is running way too Running too lean – High positive fuel corrections can be traced to:
    1) MAF
    2) O2 sensor faults
    3) vacuum leaks from intake gaskets/hoses
    4) unmetered air (intake snorkel leak)
    5) clogged or dirty fuel injectors
    6) fuel delivery issues
    7) exhaust restrictions such as a clogged catalytic converter.

    I believe you have chased most of these items already so let's presume that the O2 sensors are correct. It could be a coincidence or it could be related to something that happened during the major. If the O2 sensors are correct then the problem is on Bank 1. The problem is affecting all four injectors or only one of them. Of the remaining possibilities that leaves us with:

    5) clogged or dirty fuel injectors
    6) fuel delivery issues on Bank 1
    7) exhaust restrictions such as a clogged catalytic converter.

    So....based on what you have done so far....what appears left is:

    1) a bad fuel pressure regulator ....affecting all four cylinders
    2) a bad injector affecting one cylinder
    3) a bad catalytic converter affecting all four cylinders

    None of that is easy to diagnose. You could swap Regulator Bank positions to see if the problem moves. I would first check the vacuum line to the Regulator and make sure it is okay.
     
  21. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    INrange, yup those are the items I'm running through.
    I started playing with the throttle linkage and noticed something. When disconnecting bank 1 the butterfly's move at full range of the throttle but when I attach bank 1 back it seems like I get limited movement of throttle. Could I have assembled something incorrectly on bank 1 throttle bodies?
    See video here. Someone please see how much movement they have in their throttle.
    Mine only moves about 1/2 of the way it seems.
     
  22. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
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    I tried to edit the above post but ran out of time. INTMD8 is also correct....it could be a mistimed cam although I sincerely hope that is not the case.
     
  23. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
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    The answer is yes.....if Bank 1 throttle body is open at idle that could also cause Bank 1 to be getting way too much air. It could also possibly explain the inverse STFT readings. Both sides should have the same range of motion.
     
    INTMD8 likes this.
  24. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,508
    Lake Villa IL
    Not sure what would be stopping throttle opening but doesnt seem right.

    For comparison

     
  25. ThomasK

    ThomasK Karting

    Dec 8, 2009
    132
    Houston, TX
    I just found the solution to the limited throttle movement...throttle parts are hitting one of the plenum clamps limiting the movement. I guess that explains why the car felt slow at full throttle :)
    However it doesn't solve the fuel trim problem.
    But yes when I barely pull the throttle manually bank1 opens first by a little bit and bank2 follows. Bank 2 seems to have play in the linkage on the throttle bodies but not in the joints those are solid. That would explain all the fuel trim problems but how to remedy without an SD1 monitoring all the vacuum readings in every port?
     

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