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Long time to build oil presure on 330 GTC

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by enzob, Mar 17, 2005.

  1. enzob

    enzob Rookie

    Jan 31, 2004
    39
    San Diego, Ca
    Full Name:
    Enzo Bertaggia
    I have a 330 GTC that has an oil cooler built into the radiator. I have tried both the Fram 28041 and Baldwin B253 oil filters. When I first start it after sitting overnight, it takes 20 seconds after the engine starts while the engine is idling, before the oil pressure needle moves from 0. If I let the engine warm up and let it set for 15 minutes and then re-start it, it only takes 2-3 seconds for the oil pressure to build up. Is the long time to build up pressure when cold normal? What should I check?

    Thanks,

    Enzo
     
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  3. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
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    Kenneth
    I would check the sender unit first, but I wouldn't be starting the car until I found out if it's an instrument problem or an oil starvation problem!

    Ken
     
  4. enzob

    enzob Rookie

    Jan 31, 2004
    39
    San Diego, Ca
    Full Name:
    Enzo Bertaggia
    This has a mechanical oil pressure guage. I disconnected the oil pressure gauge and let the line run into a container. When cold, nothing comes out the line for 15 seconds and after that is a steady stream.
     
  5. matteo

    matteo F1 World Champ

    Aug 1, 2002
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    Sounds like a blockage in the motor or in the oil screen. I would not start the car until the obvious things have been checked.
     
  6. enzob

    enzob Rookie

    Jan 31, 2004
    39
    San Diego, Ca
    Full Name:
    Enzo Bertaggia
    Can the oil screen be checked by removing the lower oil pan plate? Thanks
     
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  8. matteo

    matteo F1 World Champ

    Aug 1, 2002
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    Yep.
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,086
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    Brian Crall
    Yes it can. You should also check to be sure you have about 1/8-3/16 inch between the pickup screen and the lower inner surface of the oil pan. You should also inspect the entire oiling system. A partially stuck pressure relief valve can cause that, I fixed a 400 once for the same reason. A bad connector hose from the oil pump pick up to the oil pump or even a loose clamp or a cracked pipe should be considered and to fix that you would have to pull the motor.

    Just as background, when the motor is smoking hot, how low does the oil pressure get at idle?
     
  10. enzob

    enzob Rookie

    Jan 31, 2004
    39
    San Diego, Ca
    Full Name:
    Enzo Bertaggia
    Rifledriver: Where is the pressure relief valve? Can I look at that when the pan is off? The oil pressure is good a normal operating temperatures and If I shut it off and wait 5 minutes, the pressure builds up in 1-2 seconds. Thanks, Don
     
  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    It is next to the right side oil filter. If you do not have one you should consider getting a shop manual before getting too far into this. To begin with you should familiarize yourself with the oiling system.
     
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  13. enzob

    enzob Rookie

    Jan 31, 2004
    39
    San Diego, Ca
    Full Name:
    Enzo Bertaggia
    Rifledriver: Are you talking about the adjustment for oil pressure, in front of the right side oil filter? It has a domed nut and then 2 more lock nuts and a set screw? I’ve got a shop manual but there is nothing showing a diagram of the oil path or the area up by the oil filters. It does talk about adjusting the oil pressure. Thanks again.
     
  14. eacreations

    eacreations Rookie

    Mar 15, 2005
    4
    Claremore, OK
    Full Name:
    Casey
    You may have restriction in your oil cooler, or it could just be how long the lines are to travel to the cooler at back to the engine. If the oil drains back down the lines when the motor is shut off, then the pump will have to fill the lines before you get proper oil flow. It's hard to diagnose a problem without seeing it. Best of luck,
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,086
    Austin TX
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    If you take that apart, behind the adjusting screw will be a spring and the spring bears down on a piston. That piston has to be free to move the entire length of the cylinder it is in.

    I have to tell you that I doubt that is the problem but it is easy to check so it makes sense to do it now.

    How much oil pressure does this motor have at idle when fully (oil) warmed up? What does it go to max when revved (again hot oil)? Also are you sure this happens with the Baldwin filters?

    How long has this been going on? Did it start suddenly or gradually? At what time did you first notice it and what happened prior. What (short version) is the history of the motor? Also if you take a filter off does it look normal inside? It may be the next step to cut a filter open to see if they are collapsing internally.

    The top items in my hit parade are either
    1- A restriction in the oil pump pickup (to close to the pan bottom)
    2- A vacuum leak in the suction side of the oil pump
    3- Depending on the history of this problem, an oil pump problem
    4- A huge leak internally on the output side of the pump or a restriction on the output side of the pump

    Knowing the history of the problem and the motor can help narrow those down.
     
  16. enzob

    enzob Rookie

    Jan 31, 2004
    39
    San Diego, Ca
    Full Name:
    Enzo Bertaggia
    At idle, when fully warmed up, it has about 1-2 bars. At about 4000 rpm it is 6-7 bars. Yes, the problem is still happening with the Baldwin filters.

    I bought the car in October 2004. I drove it in Denver June 2004 and it smoked but I didn’t notice any oil pressure problems. Because of the smoke it was rebuilt. I bought the car after the rebuild but didn’t drive it in Denver. It was then trucked to San Diego and I noticed the slow oil pressure build immediately. I called the mechanic and he said it was because of the oil cooler. I trusted him. Recently I took it to a local mechanic and he raised the red flag. I disconnected the line going to the oil pressure gauge and started up the engine (cold) and there was nothing coming out the line until about 15 seconds and then a steady stream. I have had Fram and Baldwin filters installed with no difference.

    Thanks again for the help
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    You seem to be very observent so I will trust things to be as you say. Logic seems to suggest something happened during the rebuild. Oil coolers etc can take a second or two to fill but not what you suggest. The motor makes good oil pressure so I will rule out for now the oil filters. Just for the heck of it I would go ahead and check the oil pressure relief valve, but with idle oil pressure like that I don't think you will find anything. Considering the motors recent history the oil pump pickup is setting off alarm bells for me.
    I won't bother you with an uninteresting story but a few years ago I fixed a car with the exact chain of events and symptoms and the oil pickup was jammed against the bottom of the pan. It is very easy to do on that motor during reassembly.
     
  18. geekstreet

    geekstreet Karting

    Feb 7, 2005
    220
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Cam
    I know nothing of the 330 and so will defer to the experts, but I'm just wondering about the rebuild. The oil system on this car seems extremely inefficient at building oil pressure when "drained". Is is possible that the oil pump assembly could be installed incorrectly, ie a rotor/stator/gear/etc put in backwards? Could there be a missing gasket (on pump housing or intake pipe from sump, etc)? How "idiot-proof" are these, Rifledriver?
     
  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    The pump is a very simple piece attached to the back side of the front cover and gear driven off the crank. It would require removing the motor and taking it apart quite a ways to do much about it so we will just hope that is not the problem. The intake pipe is a 2 piece unit with a short pipe attached to the pump coupled to a long pipe via a rubber hose secured by 2 hose clamps. The pipe is attached to 2 main caps with sheet metal brackets and needs to be carefully installed to be certain that the pickup is situated correctly in the bottom of the sump.That entire group of pieces has several design features that will allow for this problem. Sealing the pipe to the pump (as you mentioned) is one of them.

    If there is inadequate oil access to the pick up or a vacuum leak prior to the pump it can have a very difficult time developing pressure but can make very good pressure once it is developed.

    If inspecting the pickup does not pay off checking for restrictons in the oil lines and cooler will need to be done but in my experience those are usually accompanied by low oil pressure and oil pressure is something that seems to be in abundance.

    In writing this I recall having one of those motors have a problem with the short pipe connected to the oil pump. It was mounted (partially due to prior damage) in such a way that it was contacting the oil pump drive gear and had a hole sawed through it. With the sump cover off it may be possible to see with a good flashlight and an extension mirror.
     
  20. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
    Advising Moderator

    Jul 20, 2003
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    "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later."
    - Fram's TV Ads in 70s, featuring an actor looking and sounding like he was making some sense.

    Though by all appearances, Baldwin filter is the main culprit in this case - Rifledriver makes some extremely valid points. If the pickup tube is in the wrong spot, oil pressure suffers, sometimes tremendously... many an engine has blown because of this simple oversight. Zero pressure and all that bad stuff. Doesn't matter if it's not the main culprit - what does matter in the short and long run is that lube tube is doing precisely what it was meant to do, as your engine's life depends on it.
     
  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    How is the Baldwin filter the main culprit in this case?
     
  22. billb

    billb Formula Junior
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jun 4, 2001
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    #19 billb, Mar 22, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  23. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Nice picture, thanks.

    But before people get confused the 330 motor is very different.
     
  24. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,384
    The Cold North
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    I think what Wax may be getting at..is possiably the oil filters are draining back into the engine over night. Once they have fully drained back, it will take a bit of time to get the oil back up there to fill them back up again. I'm not too sure, as I have never used a Baldwin filter before but I don't think they have the anti drain back valves built in..correct me if I'm wrong.

    If this is indeed the case then switch filters with a type that does have the anti drain back valve would be a step I would take first. Just a thought..

    Tom
     
  25. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,086
    Austin TX
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    He has used the Baldwins and the Frams with no change. All of them will drain back given enough time but will only take a second or two to refill unless something is wrong. Usually is halfway there before the motor is even running. 20 seconds is a long time, look at your watch and sit there thinking the motor is running and the oil gauge has not moved yet. A brand new - never been run motor primes faster than that.
     

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