looking for 1411 | FerrariChat

looking for 1411

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by yale, Mar 17, 2005.

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  1. yale

    yale Formula Junior

    May 2, 2004
    744
    New York City
    #1 yale, Mar 17, 2005
    I drove over to Francois shop last weekend to drop off my car. I had asked Tom Yang to meet me there on the way home from his house so he could give me a ride back into the city. There was a 250GT LWB California Spyder there that Francois was going to restore to its orginal livery. It had been owned by an opera singer who had all the gauges that would normally be mounted in the dash in a line to the right of the driver incorporated into the speedo and tach. This was so he could add another glove box where the gauges would have been with the assumption that there was a radio and possibly a tape player there.

    During the cars life it had burned up and the motor was taken out. Francois has a photo of two guys shaking hands in front of the rusty charred wreck. My caption was "Thanks for buying this pile of junk."

    Francois is looking for the orginal motor and Tom offered to help, or as Francois said when Tom offered to locate the motor, "You wanna play with the computer, sure."

    Here is where Tom has gotton so far with Kare's help. Any more thoughts?

    (Story and pictures on tom's site www.tomyang.net)


    "Francois' shop currently has a 250GT LWB California Spyder.

    The Cal Spyder was a beautiful car. With only about 46 Long-Wheel-Base Spyders made, I knew I was looking at a rare car. This particular car is 1411, and has some special features ordered from the factory which François plans to restore back to original when he performs a ground up restoration. Much of the bright work was made in stainless steel, and a dashboard with special instrumentation was ordered by the original owner. After a crash and subsequent fire in the 60s, this car was found in a wrecking yard in Louisiana, missing an engine and sold as a basket case. The last restoration changed some of the original details of the car and was completed by the early 90s with an engine bearing the number 0939.

    François wants to try to find the original engine to this car, and it seems like an impossible task that I would love to give a try! Taken out of the car in the 60s, who knows where it could be today, but I'm also hoping with the power of the Internet, and the amount of eyes and ears that can help in this quest, we may have a better chance at succeeding than ever before. Maybe we can all learn something from this search.

    Here's some of the the information I have on the car at the time the engine was separated from the car:

    Jan 1967 imported to USA from Italy
    Seriously crashed and burned
    Sometime in the 80s, found in Louisiana Junkyard
    Sold to Joe Alphabet of Newport Beach CA
    June 1986 Sold to Martin Emmison who owned and restored the car through Terry Hoyle Engineering

    I'd imagine the place to start looking if no one knows where engine # 1411 is, would be to ask Joe Alphabet where in Louisiana he bought the car from. Does anyone know if he is still around, and still into Ferraris? Perhaps we can find where the junkyard was and who they may have sold the engine to. Another idea is to find out who exported it to the States, and who crashed it, and where. Anybody have any other ideas?

    Kare Pietila provided what he may have on some of these engine numbers, but as you can see, it may not have much to do with where engine 1411 might be today.

    Pretty confusing. I have notes of:

    - Engine 1411GT being with Court Whitlock and kept as a spare engine
    for 212 Export 0100E.
    - Engine 1141GT (not 1411GT!!!) being in 0297EU as installed by RRR-
    motors in the 1960's. It seems that engine 0297EU was with 0100E
    and a swap may have been made: 250 GT engine (which number???)
    against 212-engine 0297EU.
    - Jeff Lewis treading a restamped engine against original unit from
    Whitlock. If 0939GT is still in 1411GT, I guess Lewis got 1141GT
    from Whitlock for 1141GT (250GT TDF) and *NOT* for 1411GT (250GT
    Cal Spider). I have Lewis owning both cars, but think he only
    owned the TdF...

    So: no help found in my files.

    I believe François already contacted Gerald Rousch, and turned up nothing significant, but I would love to hear what else people may be able to add. Thanks in advance for your help!"

    Ron Shmoll found a piece in:

    "Cavallino No. 76 August / September 1993. I don't have a copy but it may provide further clues as to the fate of engine 1411GT.

    California Dreaming - The author searches for the past of his 250 GT LWB California Spyder, s/n 1411GT, and
    finds the history and romance. Research and discovery by Martin Emmison. Photography by Martin McGlone.

    Also worth noting is that Symbolic Motor cars listed a TDF in 1999 as s/n 1411GT. Could be a typo though.

    Ron"
     
  2. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Feb 22, 2004
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    #2 tomgt, Mar 18, 2005
    Is this the black california with license GSK682?
    It was rebodied by rodjolley.
    Saw pics of a competely burned car (very worse)
    The car was next to me on the campsite at Coys Historic Silverstone 1998. Have pics.
     
  3. joopjoldersma

    joopjoldersma Formula Junior

    Dec 6, 2003
    364
    Holland
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    Joop Joldersma
    #3 joopjoldersma, Mar 18, 2005

    As far as my information goes, yes that's the car. I would love to have some more pictures; [email protected]

    Thanks
     
  4. xs10shl

    xs10shl Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2003
    2,037
    San Francisco
    #4 xs10shl, Mar 19, 2005
    Just a thought - it may be helpful to start a search for the Numero Interno of 1411GT's engine (which I don't have with me offhand) in case the motor was restamped to match the car it's in today.
     
  5. yale

    yale Formula Junior

    May 2, 2004
    744
    New York City
    #5 yale, Mar 19, 2005
    Amazing in this group that no one knows where the orginal engine for 1411 is today. I guess there are still many secrets. Best, Yale
     
  6. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
    6,929
    #6 Horsefly, Mar 21, 2005
    Interesting that the car was "found" in a wrecking yard in Louisiana. I remember years ago that there was a guy named Jerry Brewster in Bastrop, Louisiana who was a wheeler dealer in old Corvettes and other exotic cars. LONG before the collector car boom of the 80s, he was advertising in the back of Hot Rod Magazine and Hemmings. Sources told me that he would travel around the southern states and stop at any salvage yard that he could find, pulling parts off old Corvettes and leaving the carcass behind if it was really wrecked badly. He bought many of the restorable hulks and took them back to Lousiana. I don't know if he is still around or not. Haven't seen any mention of him in years. About 15 years ago, I received a flyer advertising a big sale that he was having, but since there is no interstate highway leading into that part of south Arkansas and Louisiana, I passed on the trip. I also know of another guy in southeast Texas who bought up dozens of old Corvette hulks for many years. He might have run across a Ferrari or two in his time.
     
  7. tyang

    tyang Rookie

    Feb 16, 2005
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    New York
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    Tom Yang
    #7 tyang, Mar 21, 2005
    I bet if Jerry Brewster were around, he could point us in the direction of which wrecking yard 1411 lived.

    Although it looks like no one knows where engine 1411 might be, I have some questions that might help the search if I can get some answers.

    I show Giancarlo Porietti of Rome Italy owned it before selling it to someone in the USA in 1967. Whoever owned this car in the States crashed it, or knows who did.

    A Joe Alphabet of Newport Beach bought this car from the wrecking yard in Louisiana. Anyone know of Joe Alphabet? I figure anyone who would buy a wrecked Cal Spyder knew what he was doing, and may be known in the Ferrari world.

    Thanks for any help anyone can provide.

    Tom Yang
     
  8. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
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    #8 Glassman, Mar 21, 2005
    I don't really have any information other than Joe Alphabet has advertised at some time in the past in typical Ferrari publications. I can't remember how long ago but I would think checking some old classifieds would produce a phone number. I would think any west coast dealers would know him. Try Bruce Trennery at Fantacy Junction.
     
  9. yale

    yale Formula Junior

    May 2, 2004
    744
    New York City
    #9 yale, Mar 21, 2005
    FROM: History of The Z-Based GTO Replicas

    The Z-based GTO replicas were first designed and produced by Barry Goldstein (nee Merlin Coffano) at Eagle Engineering in California. Barry sold his tooling to Joe Alphabet.

    Alphabet was well known in Southern California as a dealer of used, exotic, Italian machinery. Apparently due to pressure from Ferrari, he decided to sell his replica car business to stay in their good graces and maintain a good working relationship.

    Alphabet sold his business to Tom McBurnie. McBurnie produced a Corvette-based Daytona Spyder replica and the McBurnie GTO became a complimentary product. However, legal troubles with Ferrari (more on that later), and other problems would eventually drive him out of business.
     
  10. ferrariartist

    ferrariartist F1 Rookie

    Feb 21, 2003
    3,564
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    #10 ferrariartist, Apr 3, 2005
    the copy of Cavallino with 1411 is now on ebay ... cheap...

    http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=280&item=6953873773&rd=1

    i have this copy myself and the photos of her are stunning ... not many.. but absolutly stunning... the squared off stainless steel trim is beautiful...

    article is not much help as to the whereabouts of the engine tho.. the writer - and owner at the time - was asking for help with the search too...

    GT

    ps.. i checked my garage... it wasnt there... :)
     
  11. MattOz

    MattOz Karting

    Apr 28, 2004
    96
    Warwick
    Full Name:
    Matt Osborne
    #11 MattOz, Apr 4, 2005
    If this is the car I'm thinking of, it is actually dark blue with red leather. The dates/history sounds about right. I have some old FOC magazines that detail the rebuild history of the car and some pictures of it that I took at the annual FOC dinner and dance in the UK in the early 90's.

    I don't have a scanner, but if people want the article(s), I can copy and fax them.

    All the best
    Matt
     
  12. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    #12 Aardy, Apr 4, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  13. MattOz

    MattOz Karting

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Matt Osborne
    #13 MattOz, Apr 4, 2005
    Aardy,

    If that is 1141, then it is not the car I'm thinking of. IIRC, the car restored by Hoyles has the faired in headlights under perspex covers. Of course, this may have been a modification made during the restoration process.

    Matt
     
  14. Wouter Melissen

    Wouter Melissen Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2003
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    #14 Wouter Melissen, Apr 4, 2005
    The car was offered in Bonham's 2004 Ferrari Sale in Gstaad. It now has a regular dashboard and a perspex covers on the headlights. According to the Bonham's info the body is completely new and the engine and gearbox are sourced from another car.

    Perhaps Simon Kidston of Bonham's might have an idea where the engine might be. They sold the car in 2001 and 2004.

    EDIT: some shots I took for the site (http://www.***************.com):
    http://www.***************.com/images/slide/gstaad2004/2391.jpg

    http://www.***************.com/images/slide/gstaad2004/2392.jpg

    http://www.***************.com/images/slide/gstaad2004/2393.jpg

    http://www.***************.com/images/slide/gstaad2004/2394.jpg

    http://www.***************.com/images/slide/gstaad2004/2395.jpg
     
  15. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
    9,015
    Central NJ
    #15 ArtS, Apr 4, 2005
    1411 is completely apart now. I saw bits of it yesterday, mostly on a shelf in FS's shop. I hope the engine is found, that will free up the engine currently with the car and possibly save another PF coupe from being broken up.

    Art S.
     
  16. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    #16 Aardy, Apr 4, 2005
    Matt,

    the pic with Mario del Monaco shows 1411GT as it was in 60's.
    The body that you see today on 1411GT is wrong.
    I'm sure that Sicard restores it to original configuration.
     
  17. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Sep 7, 2004
    2,493
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    #17 Ed Niles, Oct 9, 2006
    Bit of trivia: Joe changed his name to Alphabet because his birth name, although fairly short, was replete with x's and z's, and was unpronounceable in Murican. I'll bet he's still around but haven't talked to him in years.
     
  18. barchetta

    barchetta Formula Junior
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    #18 barchetta, Oct 9, 2006
    I remember seeing his ads in the back of Road & Track in the early 1980's for the "Z-car GTOs".
     
  19. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2004
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    #19 shaughnessy, Oct 10, 2006
    I talked to Joe Alphabet a year ago on Tom's behalf. He remembers nothing. Joe is in the vintage surfboard business now! Big market for that collectable item in NY and CT.
     
  20. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

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    #20 ChipG, Mar 18, 2020
    amenasce likes this.
  21. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #21 amenasce, Mar 21, 2020
    ChipG likes this.

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