Looking for some input and opinions regarding a first time vintage exotic purchase

Welcome to Ferrari Chat. What vintage exotic models do you have in mind to purchase?

 

Welcome to Ferrarichat.

First point to make is if your experience of driving is limited to modern cars (from last 15 years say), than a classic Ferrari or Maserati is likely to come as a bit of a shock when driving it for the first time.. Steering will be heavier, brakes won't be as good, clutches will be heavier and they will almost certainly be a bit tempremental about starting up on a cold day.

 

...is finding parts. body parts are mostly extinct - so find a car that is complete and correct. Reproduction mechanical parts are plentiful and mostly junk, even when sold by highly known sources.

 

Aren't Classiche ablke to make body parts?

 

For Ferrari, where the total production run for each model produced in the 50's and 60's numbers in the tens or hundreds, it really doesn't make financial sense for traditional aftermarket providers to make replacement parts. There are specialty providers, and vintage parts will occasionally pop up on eBay, but it can take a loooooong time to find some parts (especially parts that are model-specific, which is most of them outside of engine parts).

As far as I know, Classiche doesn't sell individual parts to customers. I've always felt that, if Ferrari really intended Classiche to help vintage owners, they would have created a Classiche parts department to make NLA parts available. On one hand, this would make it easier for vintage owners. On the other hand, Ferrari providing that service now would be totally unfair to the cottage industry of craftsmen and specialty providers that have filled the breach to cater to the community over the many decades Ferrari ignored vintage owners.

 

Be prepared to travel to find the right car. The market for vintage Ferraris and Maseratis global.

 

Id suspect you'd have to take your car there so it would fit properly since it would be a hand made car. It would be better if you could find a local fabricator.

 

I think spares can - and should - be devided into several categories. Basically Italians are so stupid that they build all cars using the same parts. So if you have nerve to search through Fiat/Lancia/Alfa parts, you'll find many correct parts for anything they built very easily. Many additional things were picked up at the nearest hardware store, and they may still be in production exactly the same. Many specialists pick the pieces up for 2 euros and sell them for 200 USD. You can choose between buying them or looking them up yourself. It is a hobby in its own!

My last purchase was an Iso Rivolta. Fully sorted and ready to go. First year I fixed almost a 100 faults, some of them pretty serious, some just irritating. I thought I was buying a decent car, and still think so. Just be prepared. If the guy who assembled your car did not ****-up a little here, there and everywhere, it is nothing short of a miracle. If you don't enjoy fixing things, it'll cost you dearly.

 

I thought your post raised some great questions and was quiet provocative. I think the first question one must answer here is "why?". Why do you want a vintage exotic? The "status" of owning one (I think there is some, in a way), the camaraderie of a club of other like-minded enthusiasts, a hobby, brings back memories of days gone by, or the thrill of driving a great old machine which still retains the character for which it was, and still is revered? You'll probably check more than one of these boxes.

The more you have a psychologic bend toward perfectionism, the more these cars can make you crazy. Little things can be hard to find and expensive to fix, and may not have been that great out of the factory in the first place. Nonetheless, I find great satisfaction is seeing things work the way they were meant to work and owning these old cars is really a pleasure.

In general, I enjoy the hunt not only for parts and such, but also the intellectual challenge of making an accurate diagnosis and trying to institute the correct "fix". In this endeavor, the internet has been indispensable. These old cars are very, very needy, even when "fully sorted". When sucha state of bliss does exist with an old exotic, it's usually temporary, and soon you're back problem solving or greasy trying to fix something.

In order to really enjoy these cars you must either have pretty deep pockets, be really great as a mechanic, or like me, kinda limp along in between. It is very helpful if you can do some things, and have an understanding of how things work and are repaired when they don't. Having a good set of tools (fun to buy and own!) and a lift are also requisites unless you're gonna have your car in the shop more than you drive it. I've gotten to where tinkering and problem solving on my cars is nearly as much fun (when I'm successful!) as driving them. They're not reliable, durable or always comfortable.
(Here I'm thinking of parking my Daytona or my '62 'Vette.)

When it comes to the purchase, I think that a PPI is a must and I would hire the best I could find. Recognize that they may well miss somethings, but it's worth getting an expert involved. I would also STRONGLY recommend a visit to see the car yourself. You'll almost certainly save enough in the subsequent negotiations to pay your airfare. I've never regretted going to see any car I've bought, but I've messed up several purchases when I should have gone.

I would also say that having an exotic is both a pleasure and a passion for me. Tho' not always true, old Corvettes are easier to fix, more reliable and finding parts is certainly cheaper and easier. However, not much in the old car hobby tops the panache of an Enzo era V-12. Good luck.

steve meltzer “Never enough time to do it right, always enough time to do it over”

 

Lukas, Welcome!

There is some great advice in this thread.
I would add;

Focus:
Don't just spontaneously buy the next shiny red thing that happens to catch your eye at an auction. Determine specifically the model & year you want, then go look for the best one you can find. Do your own research to determine what best suits you within your budget. Use the internet and books. Attend shows like Cavallino and go to well known shops to see cars in the flesh. Talk to owners and get their experiences. Try to get a ride or drive in the model you are considering. Enjoy this part, the hunt is half the fun...

Patience:
Be patient in the search for your car, the right one will eventually come along.
Be patient in dealing with repair and restoration shops. The skilled and knowledgeable craftsmen that work on these cars are few and far between, they may be booked up for a while before they can attend to your car. It takes longer to get parts, sometimes they have to be fabricated. Be patient in dealing with interested observers. Spend the time to politely answer the inevitable questions about your car.

I look forward to hearing about your progress.

 

I obviously have a passion for all things Italian, especially Maserati. Give Maserati some consideration. They have overall better build quality than many Ferrari models and currently you may be able to "enter" the market without too much $$$ hardship.

Although, having any F-car would be fantastic. Good luck with your quest.

Ciao and best!

~Trev

 

A vintage Ferrari that's driven with any regularity must be first sorted out, then kept in absolutely fine mechanical fettle and maintained in religious intervals. You can have faded chrome, scratched paint, tattered interior and even have some smoke from the exhaust pipes, but the mechanical workings of it must be in absolutely fine, perfect, tip-top, faultless shape. Now, the answer to your question as to the challenges, the challenge is this, are you prepared to provide the car with such care.

The cars themselves are robust, well engineered machines and will forge ahead with far less maintenance than this. But I think if I treated a vintage Ferrari this way I would be an undeserving owner.

This is only my opinion.

john

 

This is very true. First, you should spend the time to find the right car for your intended purpose (i.e., a project car if you have the patience for a restoration project, a good driver if you want to be able to use it right away, or a showcar if that's your thing), as buying a car in the wrong category and then trying to make it work for your intended category will be time consuming, expensive and frustrating.

If you want to a car that you can drive regularly and aren't a mechanic (people who can do their own mechanical work tend to be overrepresented on these message boards - if you're like me, you have a good baseline of mechanical knowledge to understand a car's issues, but lack the skills and tools to do the actual work, and so outsource the work to a mechanic), the key to enjoying vintage exotics is to locate a trustworthy mechanic who is expert in the idiosynchrosies of your particular marque of vintage exotic and develop a relationship with that person. A trusting relationship with your mechanic is absolutely vital to enjoying the car, as you need to be able to authorize him to "go through the car" and proactively fix whatever need to be fixed, based on his knowlege of the car's needs, and be comfortable that you're not going to be taken to the cleaners. The alternative is "death by a thousand cuts" as you will be forever chasing the latest (preventable) issue that pops up, which will result in the car spending more time laid up in your garage or in the shop than on the road.

Regardless of the PPI results or the seller's representions about the car being "mint" and "needing nothing", you should plan to spend a significant amount of time and money in the first year of ownership getting the car sorted so it is reliable. That is the case because people tend to sell vintage exotics either because they don't use them enough (i.e., the car has been sitting for a while before the sale) or the seller didn't want to spend the money to properly maintain the car and so the issues have piled up to the point that it was no longer reliable and the seller got fed up. Once that baseline has been established, plan on a "major service", in which the mechanic "goes through" the car once per year or so.

Even with the above, you have to have realistic expectations that, since the car is 20+ years old, things are just going to break or wear out - it's not a new Mercedes that you can just put gas into and go. I've owned my vintage exotic for long enough to have identified pretty much all of the issues that it is going to have and have fixed some of them more than once. Some chronic issues that resulted from flaws in the original design can be addressed by respectful modifications that add to the drivability and useability of the car but are reversible and so don't diminish the car's collector value.

Best of luck!

 

Welcome Lukas, have a read at my thread - buying a nice shiny red thing at an auction can be an expensive journey!

Good Luck
Mark

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/280041-restoration-starts-here-275gtb-shortnose-07333-a.html

 

It's been a slow day here, so let me throw out some random thoughts about your questions.

Not sure of the mix of those who work on their own cars v. those who use a shop, but think most of us do a bit of both. On Tom Yang's site, I'll bet that all of the repeat offenders (active posters) are DIY guys. (and no, I've not seen any females post to that site) I do everything I can, but admit to having a real mechanic help me from time to time. I'm also lucky to have a great friend who's not only a great mechanic, but has the same passion and love of these cars as I. As a kid growing up I had no real role model for this sort of thing. My Dad was a smart guy, good in the stock market, but didn't know a wrench from a hammer. So it's been a slow go while I've learned watching others, looking at stuff on the 'net and pestering experts.

Dunno how most of the posters came to own their cars, but I've bought from individuals, several dealers, and two cars from eBay (one not so great, one better than expected, but both were dealers). I've also found a number of my cars in Hemmings. I've never bought at a live auction as there's no easy way to asses the car unless you're an expert; I can make perfectly irrational decisions without the hubris of a live auction to spur me on.

I'm often asked which car I prefer to drive and the answer is always the same. Whatever car in the garage is currently operable. There are always things that need attention, some more than others, some more complex than others, some awaiting parts...well, you get the picture. These old cars just need lots of love and attention, but they're well worth it, IMHO.

Reading all of these posts, including my own drivel, would cause a logical, rational person to conclude we're all nuts and masochists. For them, a good, reliable, comfortable car with AC will do. In any color.

Best of luck.
steve meltzer
"unencumbered by the thought process"

 

G'day Lukas,while all these learned gentlemen have given a great insite to classic(vintage)Ferrari ownership/custodianship,there is one EXTREMELY important part no-one ,including yourself,have touched on.
It DOES have the greatest of bearings on your purchase,do you want/need a 2,4 or 2+2,seating capacity.
THAT will,and I'm not prying here,have the hugest part to play in your purchase and/or restoration cost's.
If the necessary type is a 4 seater then you will be starting on the lower end of the purchase list,but on the higher end of availability,but also(possibly)on the 'deferrerd maintenance syndrome'
The 2+2's are more limited to the 250GTE and C4(I think most would agree),and there you have about a 2.5:1 purchase ratio,though the C4 is VERY expensive if you've mechanical issues.
Then you come to the 2 seater's,as soon as you take out the remaining rear seats,so to does the price escalate by about 2-2.5:1.
So,unless the purchase price is not an issue,you have to take in all this info,and yes,as 3500GT says,there ARE many fish in the ocean if you are an Italophile.
Good luck!

 

Lukas,
The 240Z in your moniker would lend the thought that you have some experience with 60's & 70's classics and know all about the relative merits of vintage horsepower and electrical systems and cooling and bla, bla, bla... when compared to modern vehicles. The 240Z still looks good and can keep up with modern traffic and remain tractable while doing so.
Vintage Italian or English may not be so tractable, but who cares? What one will notice right away when driving a vintage exotic on the road for any legth of time is how rude the normally placid cookie cutter car driver can be when he cuts you off in traffic just to see what the front end looks like because he's never seen one before. Or, it may just be that he's a jealous wanker wanting to put you in your place.
Be warned.

 

Just based on my own experience, it's handy to undersand who is going to be servicing the car when I consider buying a new marque I'm not as familiar with. I can do a lot of maintenance work myself, but it's handy to have a mechanic lined up who is also willing to educate you on his experiences working on some of your target models. He'd hopefully be able to tell you a few specific things to look out for from a maintenance standpoint on each model you're interested in, and occasionally he'll know of a customer's car coming up for sale.

Also based on my own experience, no matter how nice the car, I've just typically found that there's up to $10,000 worth of work that needs to be done to fix all the things that the previous owner either decided to live with, or gave up on and hence sold the car. The number varies depending on the model, of course. Always best to try and anticipate such costs by building it into the price, but something always seems to come up post-sale that needs work before the car is reliable.