Looking for that green dot | FerrariChat

Looking for that green dot

Discussion in '360/430' started by Mickster, Dec 9, 2017.

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  1. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
    608
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Mikael Andersson
    I noticed oil leaking from front of engine and found out it was the drivers side exhaust cam gasket failing. Being in there I searched for that little green dot on the exhaust variators but found none.
    However; One of ’em seem to be newer than the other. It is marked:
    OMG oc
    A998

    Anybody knows what that marking mean?

    The guy who sold me the car told me they were replaced during the campaign but then they should have been marked (green dot)? I don’t have the ”VD” stamp either on the block.

    Ah well, since I’m already there and poking around I might as well lift the cams and check the variators...


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  2. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    12,313
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    Jimmie
    You should be able to confirm if the variator recall has been done (or needed to be done) via an official dealer or importer
     
  3. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
    608
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    Mikael Andersson
    Yep! Tried that once but got m no answer.
    Will check with AD again on monday.
     
  4. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3
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    Mar 18, 2005
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    Not necessarily. I was in the same boat with a 99 model and there was no history that the recall had been completed even though the dealer and MODIS indicated there were no outstanding recalls. My communication with the dealer indicated that some data had been lost when they went to the updated system. My car did not have the stamps on the block either. However, this is what I found when I pulled the covers....
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  5. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
    608
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    Mikael Andersson
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  6. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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    Sep 1, 2013
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    Raimondo
    If I were in that far I would change them. They are a part that should be changed at 100k km anyway.

    Not that u have that many miles on it but just that it is a part with a known service interval, and the car is approaching 20 years old, and you can’t verify they were changed.


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  7. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
    608
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    Mikael Andersson
    Yup- I’ve come to the same conclusion. I’ll have to order the parts and a good set of timing tools monday...
     
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  8. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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  9. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
    608
    Sweden
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    Mikael Andersson
    Thanks’ a bunch for your input. I’ve red a lot of those old threads already...

    Major issue is to get the old variator free from the cam.
    I’ve tried today but to vain.
    Tried cooling the variator and using the heat gun on the cam - no luck... Just won’t loose... Maybe I’m being overly cautious - just don’t want to break the cam.
    And yes - I do wrench right as it’s left threaded.
     
  10. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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    I am not a pro, and haven’t done this yet. I have a couple of years left before I need to tackle it but I have given it a fair bit of thought in preparation.

    Rifledriver cryptically eludes to possible ways to get them off like removing a barrel from “Remington 700.” I’m not a gunsmith but I’d start with part 1&2 by this guy. Sounds like you are already there and are worried about excessive torque.



    Next I’d consider least to most invasive (including judicious use of heat) of these suggestions.

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/removing-remington-700-barrel-164641/

    I am lucky to have a few very good machinists nearby. I would most likely supply them with as much info as they would be receptive to, and just have the machinist tackle it which will probably involve turning the variator shoulder on a lathe just at the cam end down to the threads.

    I’ve no problem passing the cams off to a pro with the right tools and experience.


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  11. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 World Champ
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    Jul 8, 2016
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    This is a touchy one that has always had me miffed, so I chose not to worry about it. I have NO indication that my '99 has had the variator recall completed, although according to several sources and FNA, it was not required on my car, even though the VIN and chassis # falls in with the campaign. No green dot, record, or VD stamp...but when my major is due, it will be close to 60k miles, so I will probably just have it done then...even though I know someone who's engine blew AFTER the variator update, because of the variators. No absolutes here, so I just drive the car and enjoy it.
     
  12. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
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    That’s right - I am... Even though I do understand that 160-200Nm is a lot + adding the loctite into the equation.
    I too have few machinists that could prove useful. However; They are not Ferrari experts by any means, let alone have worked on cam shafts historically...

    Might just send them out to a specialist to have it done. Someone with experience from this exact type of job...

    Yup! Maybe I too should have gone this route instead of complicating things.
    And as you mention; No guarantee it won’t happen just because one changes to the updated ones...
     
  13. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3
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    Mar 18, 2005
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    Not sure if you have seen this or not, but this pic is from the 360 CS workshop manual and it shows the OMG oc A998 variator stamping. I would assume since the CS came out at the end of the 360 model run, those markings would indicate a newer (i.e. updated version)

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  14. dang2407

    dang2407 Karting

    Apr 29, 2017
    169
    SW France
    So is that the same OMG 998 as in post #5?
     
  15. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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    Maybe, or maybe just a stock picture used. The 360 (idk about CS) WSM has been known to have errors.

    Here is a pic from ricambi. I’d call or email/PM Daniel and ask him. He may be able to get the # from one.

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  16. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
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    Very interesting! It appears to be the same except for the ”1L” mark...

    This could actually explain something; the difference between left and right bank on my car (see post #1), suggest that only the drivers side has been changed.
    My extensive search on this forum and other, has led me to believe that someone in the past took a shortcut and didn’t change both since the drivers side is the one prone to fail.

    I will change both anyway since I’m so far in it already. Only whish that it would be some sort of guarantee they won’t fail in the future.
    I know now (after my extensive search ), that won’t be the case since there’s rapports of failures even after the upgrade...
     
  17. Ghostdiver

    Ghostdiver Formula 3
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    That is from page 141 in the CS manual. Not sure about the 1L mark though since the picture shows the RH side of the engine. Page 137 is showing the LH side which is stamped 2A
     
  18. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
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    Mikael Andersson
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  19. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
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    Mikael Andersson
    Regarding separation; It takes quite a lot of torque to break the part free. I didn’t measure but would say I used more than 180-200Nm and it still wouldn’t break free.

    So I used some old school technique: I put the cam (with variator still attached), in the freezer for a couple of hours.
    Then I took it out and wrapped some wettened thick cloth around the first set of lobes and tightened it in a small vice (the cloth is to make sure the lobes won’t be damaged from the vice).
    Finally I gently heated the outside area of the cam where the variator is threaded in, using a hobby gas torch.
    Then I broke the variator free with an almost ”punching” movement.

    This technique resembles a bit how to break a rifle barrel free, I know.


    Now I face the problem of making a tool to properly torque the new variator up in the cam.
     
  20. PrecisionMike

    PrecisionMike Rookie

    Jan 21, 2016
    16
    Northern Hemisphere
    Hi to all. Just for future reference having recently fully rebuilt an alfa GTV Twin Spark engine which uses " visually" the same variator which I could not budge. I took the cam shaft to a well known alfa specialist who clamped the cam in a rubber faced vice and simply gave one huge tug using a breaker bar withe the variator tool . The trick is a substantial vice on a truly rigid bench!
     
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  21. MalcQV

    MalcQV F1 Rookie

    Oct 11, 2004
    3,292
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    Malc Holden
    Interesting. I had a garage change my cambelt and variator on my Twin Spark but it didn't last 600 miles before it came away from the camshaft and consequently destroyed the engine.
     
  22. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
    608
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    Mikael Andersson
    I’ve been thinking that such a thing might happen since thread lock isn’t a part of the ”upgrade” according to the Ferrari bulletin / recall.
    The 1’st gen variators were tightened to a higher spec AND thread lock was used. The 2’nd gen (uprated), variator is supposed to be tightened to a lower spec without any thread lock being used.

    Why Ferrari excluded the thread lock is something I don’t understand.
     
  23. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    794
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    Mike M
    For me it does make sense. My take on it is thread lock is like a lube before it cures, so for the same torque applied, there will be more stress in the shaft than with a dry thread.

    The cracks seem to propagate at the groove above the thread, so they rounded the profile there also.

    Both changes hopefully reduce the risk of failure to a ‘more acceptable’ level.

    I’ll be leaving mine well alone as the failure is either down to a manufacturing defect or installation and I figure after 35k miles, I’m as the bottom of the bathtub curve!
     
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  24. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
    608
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    Mikael Andersson
    Seems logical!
    I just whish I had the knowledge about the variators on my car (they apparently had been changed already), before going down this road.

    For sure I will feel that ”what if” when I start her up again and whenever I take a drive...
     
  25. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    794
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    Mike M
    Follow the procedure........you will be fine :thumbsup:

    Just enjoy the car in good health, that’s all that matters.....


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